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Thread: Stinging Curse and it's (intentional?) bad design

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    Member Flipeld's Avatar
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    Stinging Curse and it's (intentional?) bad design

    Hey everyone!

    So, while playing with a class in which I have the empowered gem Stinging Curse equiped, I got somewhat conflicted with one thing: why does Pyrodisk is scaled by Physical/Magical Damage and Critical Hit/Damage multipliers, but Stinging Curse is not?

    Both gems are damage-oriented, and should scale similarly. If Stinging Curse scaled the same way Pyrodisk does, that would help classes deal good single target damage, the same way Pyrodisk does so with AoE.

    Does anyone ever asked this question, or am I crazy?

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    Member Hyperiem's Avatar
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    Well let's look at what we know first.

    Firstly, we know that Stinging Curse is a DoT Damage Type Gem. Pyrodisc is Burst Damage. Generally Burst Damage is a one-off thing but DoT is more like an investment. Burst Damage throws your power around all at once but DoT needs time to pull similar numbers. Now that's not to say one is better than the other, they're just different methods of getting damage across. One advantage that Pyrodisc DOES have over Stinging curse however is that it scales with your CH and CD. This means that Pyrodisc takes the full potential of your DPS. Stinging curse doesn't really work the same way. Stinging Curse only uses your Raw Damage for its own damage output. And it uses a terribly small cut of it.

    For reference, I have a 2.1M Coefficient Dracolyte meaning I have 193,261 Magic Damage, 1238.9% Crit Damage, and 81.2% Crit Hit. Given these numbers I was doing roughly 289K/297K per hit and 3.88M/3.97M per hit with a Crit.

    Had I been using the Arcane Emblem instead but retained the 81.2% Crit Hit without the use of the SureStrike Emblem, the numbers turn to be instead 724K per hit and 9.7M per hit on Crit.

    Now how did Stinging curse fare? Ehh... not too well unfortunately. Because Stinging Curse doesn't take Critical strikes into account, quite a bit of damage is lost. Now there is a small silver lining, (if you could even call it that.) but it's not all that useful unless you were running bosses in something like ST. Though what with the new update about to hit with Leviathans and all in Topside, it might also get some use there. Regardless, I digress.

    From the numbers given above I was dealing around 9K Damage per hit with the DoT effects of Stinging Curse and 24K per hit with the Arcane Emblem. Now the damage DOES keep stacking the more you keep attacking the enemy so it's not completely useless. But it does take time to build up a meaningful amount as opposed to Pyrodisc's Burst Damage, which DOES use Critical modifiers. Not to mention the stacking bit is a bit inconsistent. (This may or may not depend on the server registering the hit or refreshing the timer).

    Given that damage from both cases, we can conclude that Stinging curse deals roughly 3% of your RAW DAMAGE per tick. Now like I said, the damage DOES stack but it's not really practical. You're going to have to constantly hit your target to make sure that stack doesn't just disappear and odds are, not many enemies apart from ST bosses are even going to have enough health to be able to stack a high enough amount of DoT that would be even remotely useful. Most late game players will easily dismember U9 enemies in a single hit, U10 enemies in roughly 3-4 hits, and Ultra ST U9 enemies won't last long enough to matter in the long run.

    So all in all, no. Stinging Curse does NOT scale the same way that Pyrodisc does. Pyrodisc takes your Crit damage into account, Stinging Curse does not. Pyrodisc uses a rather large percentage of your Raw Damage, Stinging Curse uses a measly 3% give or take. At best, Stinging Curse can use the effects of the Arcane Emblem for a slight boost to DoT damage but again, It's not a large enough increase to matter. By the time a large enough DoT is even stacked on a boss, odds are they'll be near death already, making the venture and effort to get there pretty much redundant. Not to mention you'd also have to chug down flasks every 3 seconds for the Arcane boost. Again, very impractical. Scaling DoT effects also isn't as easy as scaling for burst damage. DoT generally has a higher Damage output in the end to compensate for the fact that the damage is done slowly overtime as opposed to less damage but all in one burst. Unfortunately in this case though, the Devs designed the gem differently and it seems like they can't be bothered to balance the gems properly.

    If Stinging Curse scaled with CH/CD then MAYBE it would be more viable. But given that only about 3% of your Raw Damage is used, the damage would still be very small at the start. Let's use the 3.9M I was doing max per hit with crit. 3% of that is only about 120K ish. That's pitifully small. Using the 9.7M with Arcane instead and we get about 300K. That's still pretty small. It's pocket change in something like U10 and Ultra ST where other classes like GS, Rev, or VG excel at high burst. I myself deal around 58-60M with lasers from VG and 60M with Rev's Bulwark Bash. Obviously not taking the Light or ST Damage Nerfs into account here.

    This was a very rough experiment, using some basic numbers to the best of my abilities. Hopefully this helped you grasp the abilities of Stinging Curse somewhat.
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    Member Flipeld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperiem View Post
    Well let's look at what we know first.

    Firstly, we know that Stinging Curse is a DoT Damage Type Gem. Pyrodisc is Burst Damage. Generally Burst Damage is a one-off thing but DoT is more like an investment. Burst Damage throws your power around all at once but DoT needs time to pull similar numbers. Now that's not to say one is better than the other, they're just different methods of getting damage across. One advantage that Pyrodisc DOES have over Stinging curse however is that it scales with your CH and CD. This means that Pyrodisc takes the full potential of your DPS. Stinging curse doesn't really work the same way. Stinging Curse only uses your Raw Damage for its own damage output. And it uses a terribly small cut of it.

    For reference, I have a 2.1M Coefficient Dracolyte meaning I have 193,261 Magic Damage, 1238.9% Crit Damage, and 81.2% Crit Hit. Given these numbers I was doing roughly 289K/297K per hit and 3.88M/3.97M per hit with a Crit.

    Had I been using the Arcane Emblem instead but retained the 81.2% Crit Hit without the use of the SureStrike Emblem, the numbers turn to be instead 724K per hit and 9.7M per hit on Crit.

    Now how did Stinging curse fare? Ehh... not too well unfortunately. Because Stinging Curse doesn't take Critical strikes into account, quite a bit of damage is lost. Now there is a small silver lining, (if you could even call it that.) but it's not all that useful unless you were running bosses in something like ST. Though what with the new update about to hit with Leviathans and all in Topside, it might also get some use there. Regardless, I digress.

    From the numbers given above I was dealing around 9K Damage per hit with the DoT effects of Stinging Curse and 24K per hit with the Arcane Emblem. Now the damage DOES keep stacking the more you keep attacking the enemy so it's not completely useless. But it does take time to build up a meaningful amount as opposed to Pyrodisc's Burst Damage, which DOES use Critical modifiers. Not to mention the stacking bit is a bit inconsistent. (This may or may not depend on the server registering the hit or refreshing the timer).

    Given that damage from both cases, we can conclude that Stinging curse deals roughly 3% of your RAW DAMAGE per tick. Now like I said, the damage DOES stack but it's not really practical. You're going to have to constantly hit your target to make sure that stack doesn't just disappear and odds are, not many enemies apart from ST bosses are even going to have enough health to be able to stack a high enough amount of DoT that would be even remotely useful. Most late game players will easily dismember U9 enemies in a single hit, U10 enemies in roughly 3-4 hits, and Ultra ST U9 enemies won't last long enough to matter in the long run.

    So all in all, no. Stinging Curse does NOT scale the same way that Pyrodisc does. Pyrodisc takes your Crit damage into account, Stinging Curse does not. Pyrodisc uses a rather large percentage of your Raw Damage, Stinging Curse uses a measly 3% give or take. At best, Stinging Curse can use the effects of the Arcane Emblem for a slight boost to DoT damage but again, It's not a large enough increase to matter. By the time a large enough DoT is even stacked on a boss, odds are they'll be near death already, making the venture and effort to get there pretty much redundant. Not to mention you'd also have to chug down flasks every 3 seconds for the Arcane boost. Again, very impractical. Scaling DoT effects also isn't as easy as scaling for burst damage. DoT generally has a higher Damage output in the end to compensate for the fact that the damage is done slowly overtime as opposed to less damage but all in one burst. Unfortunately in this case though, the Devs designed the gem differently and it seems like they can't be bothered to balance the gems properly.

    If Stinging Curse scaled with CH/CD then MAYBE it would be more viable. But given that only about 3% of your Raw Damage is used, the damage would still be very small at the start. Let's use the 3.9M I was doing max per hit with crit. 3% of that is only about 120K ish. That's pitifully small. Using the 9.7M with Arcane instead and we get about 300K. That's still pretty small. It's pocket change in something like U10 and Ultra ST where other classes like GS, Rev, or VG excel at high burst. I myself deal around 58-60M with lasers from VG and 60M with Rev's Bulwark Bash. Obviously not taking the Light or ST Damage Nerfs into account here.

    This was a very rough experiment, using some basic numbers to the best of my abilities. Hopefully this helped you grasp the abilities of Stinging Curse somewhat.
    Thank you for your response!

    I know how Stinging Curse works. It's a DoT that has a chance of 20% to be applied, lasts 3.5 seconds and the ticks of damage occurs on 0.5 second intervals from each other. Each tick of damage deals 5% of your damage stat, and the DoT can be reapplied, increasing it's damage and resetting it's duration.

    Also, Pyrodisk is not a burst per say, since it lasts for a few seconds and each second a damage tick happens.

    What I want to see is Stinging Curse being scaled similarly to Pyrodisk. Giving Stinging Curse a coefficient of 5% of your damage stat like it is right now, plus being based on your Critical Hit and Critical Damage would give the gem effect a little boost and a purpose of a single target damage effect that actually works and is viable, the same way Pyrodisk is for AoE.

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    Member Myke1p's Avatar
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    I don't know if a change is necessary seeing as stinging curse can be applied to ranged whereas pyrodisc is a close-quarters almost melee style attack. I always felt being ranged was an extreme advantage over melee and this is reflected in the damage stats of these gems. One might argue the pyrodisc has a speed boost which kind of sets it above stinging curse, but i feel that boost is only useful to close the gap when pyrodisc activates, otherwise it's somewhat pointless in a melee bout.

    All in all I could see stinging curse's damage getting increased but it should deal less damage than pyrodisc in my opinion, and I think we're all forgetting to say the obvious: Why not both?

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    Senior Member TheIgmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myke1p View Post
    I don't know if a change is necessary seeing as stinging curse can be applied to ranged whereas pyrodisc is a close-quarters almost melee style attack. I always felt being ranged was an extreme advantage over melee and this is reflected in the damage stats of these gems. One might argue the pyrodisc has a speed boost which kind of sets it above stinging curse, but i feel that boost is only useful to close the gap when pyrodisc activates, otherwise it's somewhat pointless in a melee bout.

    All in all I could see stinging curse's damage getting increased but it should deal less damage than pyrodisc in my opinion, and I think we're all forgetting to say the obvious: Why not both?
    In endgame, anything that doesn't use crit damage is sort of worthless, since UM shadow towers reduce your outgoing damage by something like 90%, so raw damage doesn't cut it. Every damage ability should be able to crit, but DoT abilities don't seem to (though the only two I am aware of are Stinging Curse and the Revenant's DoT from Bulwark Bash/Aegis Assault). The ask isn't for more damage on stinging curse, it's for stinging curse to be able to crit and use crit damage for its output.

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    Member Myke1p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIgmo View Post
    In endgame, anything that doesn't use crit damage is sort of worthless, since UM shadow towers reduce your outgoing damage by something like 90%, so raw damage doesn't cut it. Every damage ability should be able to crit, but DoT abilities don't seem to (though the only two I am aware of are Stinging Curse and the Revenant's DoT from Bulwark Bash/Aegis Assault). The ask isn't for more damage on stinging curse, it's for stinging curse to be able to crit and use crit damage for its output.
    I know, and again, I don't think it will happen seeing as how this was brought up in the past and nothing was done about it then either. With a stacking effect like stinging curse even 1% of damage + crit would deal more dps than pyro, and I'm saying pyro should deal more as it's a melee style attack.

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    Senior Member Tortorion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIgmo View Post
    In endgame, anything that doesn't use crit damage is sort of worthless, since UM shadow towers reduce your outgoing damage by something like 90%, so raw damage doesn't cut it. Every damage ability should be able to crit, but DoT abilities don't seem to (though the only two I am aware of are Stinging Curse and the Revenant's DoT from Bulwark Bash/Aegis Assault). The ask isn't for more damage on stinging curse, it's for stinging curse to be able to crit and use crit damage for its output.
    DoTs that don't crit: Spirit Surge, Stinging Curse, Revenant's [M2] CG, (probably, don't remember) SH-sub class
    DoTs that got fixed by Trion: Dino Tamer's [M2] Net DoT.
    DoTs that got fixed by Trion: "Increased the damage on the Aegis Assault DOT effect by 100%." (That's what you got for asking Trion to fix DoTs not dealing crit hits)

    When Dino Tamer was released, his Net DoT was unable to deal critical hits, players were pissed off because of that, so Trion fixed it in a quick patch, since it was DT main damage ability.

    Who knows why Devs don't want DoTs to deal crit damage. Hidden OP damage? Not worth of server resources? Maybe dealing damage isn't the intention of DoT? You can try to ask new devs for a reason, but I doubt that you'll get any answer back.

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    Member Flipeld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIgmo View Post
    ...
    The ask isn't for more damage on stinging curse, it's for stinging curse to be able to crit and use crit damage for its output.
    That is exacly what I intend to achieve with this post.

    Pyrodisk has a pretty high scaling, since it deals 275% of the user's damage stat everytime it ticks, and is also scaled by the Critical stats. It also has a bonus 30 Movement Speed while it's active.

    Stinging Curse only deals 5% of user's damage stat per tick of damage. Even if it was able to critically hit, it still would be nowhere near as good as Pyrodisk, since it would take 55 ticks to match one tick of damage of Pyrodisk.

    However, as it can stack, it would be a good gem for long-lasting boss fights, like Shadow Tower bosses for anyone who is not in speedruns level of power yet, or the new Leviathan bosses coming in the Into The Deep update.

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