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  Click here to go to the first Trove Team post in this thread.   Thread: Terms of Service question: Is buying a pack via Steam for Flux in Trove allowed?

  1. #1

    Terms of Service question: Is buying a pack via Steam for Flux in Trove allowed?

    Some friends of mine and I had a debate today if a certain scenario is legal or illegal, regardings the Terms of Service in Trove. I look forward to get a clear reply from a Trove staff member to this topic to bring clearification.


    Scenario:
    1. Player A gives a large amount of Flux to Player B.

    2. Player B uses Steam to buy a Trove pack 'as gift' for player A.


    Now... arguments for this to be legal would be
    -It is a trade of 'things' inside Trove; where a 'pack' has to be considered equally to something like a credit pouch or a bunch of Shapestone.

    Arguments for it beeing illegally would be
    -Steam is considered as third party outside of Trove and therefore such a trade would be considered as commercial act that is no longer just within Trove's economy.


    Using the ToS did not clearly answer this question without doubt for any side.
    https://www.trionworlds.com/de/legal/terms-of-use/

  2. #2
    Senior Member fruitie's Avatar
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    They've been hesitant towards it on purpose because it's something that can encourage scams. For example I can pretend to offer an item for sale but not deliver, or I can use a stolen credit card, buy something, sell it for flux and then what is the appropriate counter measure? The latter being something that they're probably more concerned about.

    Ignoring all that, as long as something isn't too good to be true from someone you don't really know, people can do whatever they like with their money such as gifting it for flux and trion is completely responsible for these situations from happening in the first place. They simply can not blame the community for taking the only method non p2w method of acquiring otherwise gated content which directly adds damage via mastery. While I'd ordinarily recommend people support companies directly if possible, if they didn't want people buying from steam, they wouldn't have it available.

    ToS tend to be vague to cover themselves for any violations that would otherwise technically not be forbidden. Though previously the forums did abuse that vagueness which is a good reason why so little people post here nowadays.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fruitie View Post
    They've been hesitant towards it on purpose because it's something that can encourage scams. For example I can pretend to offer an item for sale but not deliver, or I can use a stolen credit card, buy something, sell it for flux and then what is the appropriate counter measure? The latter being something that they're probably more concerned about.

    The question is not about this method beeing secure or not.

    All this discussion had its origin in just the question:

    Legal or not legal?


    So what you say is: It is legal on one side, but not recommended by Trove's Staff on the other side. This would make this method completelly legal, given everyone behaves while doing it of course.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Shirokiri's Avatar
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    Would this section help at all:
    Trion may offer the option to purchase Virtual Currency with “real world” money. Once acquired, Virtual Currency can only be used to license a variety of Virtual Goods offered by Trion; it has no cash value. Virtual Items may also be granted by Trion on a free, promotional or sale basis or, in certain circumstances, earned through gameplay. Free and/or promotional Virtual Items offered by Trion may be expired at Trion’s sole and absolute discretion at any time. Trion does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the “real world” of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell Virtual Items for “real” money, or exchange such Virtual Items for value outside of the Game. Regardless of how acquired, Virtual Items are non-transferable to another person or Account, do not accrue interest, and are not insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). Except for a limited, revocable, non-transferable license to use the Virtual Items in a Game, you have no ownership or property right in or title to such Virtual Items.




    and a seperate part of TOS:
    "YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE VIRTUAL CURRENCY AND/OR VIRTUAL GOODS YOU ACQUIRE HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR MONEY, GOODS, OR OTHER ITEMS OF MONETARY VALUE."
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  5.   This is the last Trove Team post in this thread.   #5
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    This type of scenario is a spectacular way to get scammed. It's a terrible idea in every single case. It is absolutely against our Terms of Use. The best way to avoid being scammed is to avoid doing things that are highly scammable.

    Your best bet is to stick to the Marketplace in game. If you decide to go outside of the internal game system to trade then you should expect to be scammed and risk receiving a suspension or ban, depending on the specific circumstance.

    Hopefully that answer eliminates most of your doubts.

  6. #6
    Senior Member fruitie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirokiri View Post
    Would this section help at all:
    Trion may offer the option to purchase Virtual Currency with “real world” money. Once acquired, Virtual Currency can only be used to license a variety of Virtual Goods offered by Trion; it has no cash value. Virtual Items may also be granted by Trion on a free, promotional or sale basis or, in certain circumstances, earned through gameplay. Free and/or promotional Virtual Items offered by Trion may be expired at Trion’s sole and absolute discretion at any time. Trion does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the “real world” of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell Virtual Items for “real” money, or exchange such Virtual Items for value outside of the Game. Regardless of how acquired, Virtual Items are non-transferable to another person or Account, do not accrue interest, and are not insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). Except for a limited, revocable, non-transferable license to use the Virtual Items in a Game, you have no ownership or property right in or title to such Virtual Items.




    and a seperate part of TOS:
    "YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE VIRTUAL CURRENCY AND/OR VIRTUAL GOODS YOU ACQUIRE HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR MONEY, GOODS, OR OTHER ITEMS OF MONETARY VALUE."
    Generally those rules are to prevent abuse from bots and chinese farmers. You're not meant to sell items or accounts for real money, so like if you have a bunch of flux, it is against the rules to sell that for money. They also generally don't want to transfer items to other accounts, though they may make exceptions, for example if you buy a pack on the wrong account, they are not obligated to resolve it.
    ---
    From my recollection Avarem (yes, a long time ago) made this sort of transaction of steam packs out to be a grey area, but that they don't really care about small time transactions that don't have other shadiness behind it. Nor should they, they still get all of their money, whereas chinese farmers do actually affect the economy. Steam supports gifting, and the game supports trading. There's not much to discourage people from doing such things and are in fact somewhat encouraged to do so. It gets more shady when you make other transactions such as trades for other games (CS:GO skins was a common example a while back) or direct payment, though again there's not really much they'd do if it was like a friend who wanted said skin and didn't have a pattern of behaviour doing such trades. I would advice using your own discretion to find out whether something is fine to do, but also realise that refusing to do anything you may find shaky will remove any risk. Similarly I still use the box mod because spam clicking is much faster than even the in game option even though again it's not something Trion support with it too being a grey area.

    From my experience I've bought several packs from other players for flux just fine. Others have said they have gotten scammed from players they trusted. I'd argue that brings the biggest risk, but of course Trion provide little alternative for those who want to be highly competitive.

    Edit: To finalise, they are very vague because they want to avoid in any way to be held accountable. It's not reassuring to us, but unfortunately they need to protect themselves from abuse and people getting away with technicalities.
    Found the quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Avarem View Post
    Any trade that happens outside of the game is entirely unsupported by us. Which means we can't help you if any scamming occurs and generally means we won't take action.

    The short version though is: if it's among friends or is one-off behavior we aren't going to take official action. If the trading is happening with someone who is clearly doing it frequently (i.e., likely running some type of business through Trove) action will be taken if or when your account is tied to theirs.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirokiri View Post
    Would this section help at all:
    Once acquired, Virtual Currency can only be used to license a variety of Virtual Goods offered by Trion; it has no cash value.
    This sentence seem to refer to trading ingame currencies such as Flux for real money. Which gets prohibated here. But that scenario in the opening does not involve a trade of ingame currency vs real money but ingame currency vs another Trove thing... Although this Trove thing does, indeed, cost real money to aquire.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shirokiri View Post
    Accordingly, you may not sell Virtual Items for “real” money, or exchange such Virtual Items for value outside of the Game. Regardless of how acquired, Virtual Items are non-transferable to another person or Account

    This sentence does not really make sense to me... if one virtual item (lets call it Highland's Recipy) is not allowed to be transfered to another account, then it would practicly make all trading inside Trove completelly forbidden. But this can't be right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shirokiri View Post
    and a seperate part of TOS:
    "YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE VIRTUAL CURRENCY (like Flux?) AND/OR VIRTUAL GOODS YOU ACQUIRE HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR MONEY, GOODS, OR OTHER ITEMS (like Trove packs that you can buy with money via Steam?) OF MONETARY VALUE."

    This sentence seems to give a more clear answer. Fallowing that last part, our scenario in the Opening Post would be actually illegal, because that pack in Steam got 'monetary value' by beeing able to be bought with real money.


    Furthermore I would interpret this so far that it got 'monetary value' until the moment when you buy it. After this moment 'Virtual Currency can only be used to license a variety of Virtual Goods offered by Trion; it has no cash value'. In other words: once the pack is bought, it has no longer 'monetary value'. But at this moment it is also no longer tradeable or gift-able via Steam.


    Therefore, buying packs via Steam for someone else would be illegal, because it still keeps 'monetary value' at this point, and ingame things are not allowed to be traded for things with 'monetary value'.


    BUT this would inevitably lead towards the question:
    If it is not allowed to buy Trove packs for other players via Steam-gift, then why does this option even exist for Trove Packs?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Fasti View Post
    This type of scenario is a spectacular way to get scammed. It's a terrible idea in every single case. It is absolutely against our Terms of Use. The best way to avoid being scammed is to avoid doing things that are highly scammable.

    Your best bet is to stick to the Marketplace in game. If you decide to go outside of the internal game system to trade then you should expect to be scammed and risk receiving a suspension or ban, depending on the specific circumstance.

    Hopefully that answer eliminates most of your doubts.

    Thank you for your clear answer!

  9. #9
    Senior Member See's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasti View Post
    This type of scenario is a spectacular way to get scammed. It's a terrible idea in every single case. It is absolutely against our Terms of Use. The best way to avoid being scammed is to avoid doing things that are highly scammable.

    Your best bet is to stick to the Marketplace in game. If you decide to go outside of the internal game system to trade then you should expect to be scammed and risk receiving a suspension or ban, depending on the specific circumstance.

    Hopefully that answer eliminates most of your doubts.
    So Trovesaurus packs are also illegal because you exchange outside reward tokens for packs in game? Cmon Fasti, you guys intentionally have cash only packs in game instead of allowing people use Flux to purchase credit pouches. Initially it was inferred that there would always be two options to purchase items that granted mastery and you never needed to spend money to hit max mastery, you could trade Flux for credits and buy it that way.

    Yet every holiday event that comes out is more unobtainable mastery for players who use Flux as credit pouches.

    I could have sworn there was a post in the past saying you guys weren't responsible if someone got scammed but you wouldn't actively "seek out" players that did Flux for steam gifts. If someone scammed then you guys would look into it.

    Am I crazy and that was never a thing or did something change with the swap to gamigo?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Summer Haas's Avatar
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    The problem with the cash packs has always been currency conversion. The packs in some markets are significantly cheaper. Some users abuse this and buy them to sell to markets which have a higher value currency. We have seen on several occasions people being banned or accounts being rolled back for buying packs outside of their region. Typically though, what seems to be generally ignored is when you buy a pack from someone and the region matches yours. Regardless, it's still a huge risk and you have to implicitly trust the seller. Unless you've known them for a very long time, it's not a smart thing to do.


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