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Thread: [Suggestion] An idea to fix the Gunslinger's attack speed problem.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sskydragon View Post
    At the around me and you, a lot of player change their main class any to GS. this is very saddest true.
    I think you know the reason. and i think it would be changed.
    Yes, it's sad. One of the strong points of this game is that you have 16 different classes you can switch to anytime you want on the same account, unlike lots of other games where you're limited to a certain amount of classes and they're most of the time completely separated... so it's sad to see how far ahead of every other classes the Gunslinger is because the way his AS% stat works is broken.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sskydragon View Post
    and a lot of person does't know about max attack speed. i knew it [ i saw it at some article in forum. but others said "changed". and i believe... ]
    so my dt have high attack speed and Berserker battler. yes, without any buff and ultimate, my dt have 283% [ if i do upgrade, i will be 291% ].
    if i do ultimate, i can be 308%[316%]. and with Beserker battler, 348%[356%]. and with LL sub, i will got 448%[456%]
    max dt will lost 256% attack speed (156% actually, max is 300%). [ p.s. you can say change Beserker battler or AS or Sub, but if i do change it, my dps is not be more strong. ]
    Yep, I very shortly mentioned that in my first post. The Dino Tamer already has higher base AS% than most other classes AND his ult gives +25 AS%, so he's already over max AS% even without berserk battler... not benefiting from the lunar lancer's AS% boost isn't a big problem though because I don't think any class can benefit from it (or a tiny tiny bit at max... except gunslinger, but my suggestion would fix that), but it would be cool if he benefited from the Berserk Battler's AS boost and fully benefited from his ult's AS boost though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sskydragon View Post
    In fact, like others, i want to be purple name as DT with my effort. but now it is too hard or can't. just this hope is problem? i don't think so.
    With the Gunslinger working like currently? No, not possible (unless you get carried). In speedruns currently the optimal choice is pretty much only GS, one rev and one PC/DL (I'm not even 100% sure about DL (can't test it because I don't have a good staff yet) but lots of people say it's still better than a GS with 0% boost because it gives a small damage boost to other players. But it's definitely possible to get a safe time with 1 rev and 7 GS xD).
    With my suggestion? Well... the problem with DT is his randomness. His dinos are random (and if you spawn a tank dino it'll take the aggro from the rev), the DOTM must touch his nets and even if she spawns on them and you have good dinos, his DPS is just enough to speedrun (would be* if the Gunslinger wasn't like currently). I'm still searching for a better strat for him, with less RNG and more constant damage (I managed finding a tiny bit better than LordMix's setup, but I haven't found how to make the dinos survive yet, they die in two DOTM hits D: )
    LordMix used to do it though, so it might be possible (and I'll do my best to find a way to do it) if the Gunslinger gets fixed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sskydragon View Post
    now as second main. i am raising Sage. it is very better than Dt.. and i saw knight and used knight. it make me too sad..
    i know some class worse than DT [ but at the MD, i think dt is third lowest DPS. chlor and tomb is also terrible. but this is not DPS class [ mean tanker or healer ]. so i think Dt is lowest MD DPS class. ]"
    DT's burst dps (which is the dps you're looking for in speedruns) is probably one of the worst (if not the worst) of every magic class (if you don't count tomb raiser and chloromancer) .
    His long-term dps is about decent though, since he refreshes his nets DoT when autoattacking he keeps his highest damage as long as he has potions (without counting the dinos though because they die nearly instantly and the tank dino is problematic)
    Also, his ult gives a +30 movement speed boost, so he's not bad at farming as well, making him a pretty good overall class (still lacking of damage compared to others though).

    In my opinion, the only thing that needs to get completely reworked for the Dino Tamer (as well as his AS% problem) is his Dino Buddy ability. It's random, dinos die nearly instantly and the tank dino takes aggro from the tank, so they're basically useless (and should even be avoided in groups because of that tank dino). If they had more health, the flying dino had a bit more damage per hit (like 150% MD every 1.5s instead of 100% MD every 1.5s) and the tank dino had a taunting priority inferior to the classes' taunts (like the revenant bash or knight bash taunt effect having priority over the tank dino's one), he'd be a viable class.
    I might make a suggestion post about the Dino Tamer one day, but I'm focusing on the big problem (Gunslinger's AS%) for now ^^


    Thanks for anwsering to my post,
    ZombiPh0o_

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronozilla View Post
    They were supposed to fix pinatas such that they don't count towards any combat benefits, i see your point but that's a different issue from this.
    oh i didn't know about it. and i was not have enough understand [ now also. sorry for my poor language ].
    but yet, i think Berserker Battler is not bad at short battle because Berserker Battler's first stack is only need 1 attack, and second stack is a few [ as my dt within about 3s ]
    and st will be buff [ i remember trove said about revisit at livesteam ] .

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombiPh0o_ View Post
    Yep, I very shortly mentioned that in my first post. The Dino Tamer already has higher base AS% than most other classes AND his ult gives +25 AS%, so he's already over max AS% even without berserk battler... not benefiting from the lunar lancer's AS% boost isn't a big problem though because I don't think any class can benefit from it (or a tiny tiny bit at max... except gunslinger, but my suggestion would fix that), but it would be cool if he benefited from the Berserk Battler's AS boost and fully benefited from his ult's AS boost though.
    xD. and other class also..


    Quote Originally Posted by ZombiPh0o_ View Post
    With the Gunslinger working like currently? No, not possible (unless you get carried). In speedruns currently the optimal choice is pretty much only GS, one rev and one PC/DL (I'm not even 100% sure about DL (can't test it because I don't have a good staff yet) but lots of people say it's still better than a GS with 0% boost because it gives a small damage boost to other players. But it's definitely possible to get a safe time with 1 rev and 7 GS xD).
    With my suggestion? Well... the problem with DT is his randomness. His dinos are random (and if you spawn a tank dino it'll take the aggro from the rev), the DOTM must touch his nets and even if she spawns on them and you have good dinos, his DPS is just enough to speedrun (would be* if the Gunslinger wasn't like currently). I'm still searching for a better strat for him, with less RNG and more constant damage (I managed finding a tiny bit better than LordMix's setup, but I haven't found how to make the dinos survive yet, they die in two DOTM hits D: )
    LordMix used to do it though, so it might be possible (and I'll do my best to find a way to do it) if the Gunslinger gets fixed.
    ah, i want to say, all of class can be joined speedrun unlikely current. [ so other class get buff or strong class get debuff. ]
    i know that LordMix did it. but i listened to other player [ that is not good. ] and but only person do
    yes, if dino's buddy do attack and net is good [and use eye emblem ], it can.. maybe. [ but it is not mean dt have similar dps to Gs. DT[ 50% buff ] is similar to GS [0% buff ]
    but you said buddy have problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZombiPh0o_ View Post
    DT's burst dps (which is the dps you're looking for in speedruns) is probably one of the worst (if not the worst) of every magic class (if you don't count tomb raiser and chloromancer) .
    His long-term dps is about decent though, since he refreshes his nets DoT when autoattacking he keeps his highest damage as long as he has potions (without counting the dinos though because they die nearly instantly and the tank dino is problematic)
    Also, his ult gives a +30 movement speed boost, so he's not bad at farming as well, making him a pretty good overall class (still lacking of damage compared to others though).
    yes, long-term dps is good, but almost not important ability. [ if it need... good for dt ]
    you said, if dt is depend on DPS, buddy die through only one shot. and after die, aggro also problem.
    i agreed dt is good when i don't compared.
    through recently patch, dt have Ms buff but when i with my friend[GS or VG / at U10 ], i feel so sad. GS use ultimate and press Q -> attack. [ very strong ]
    but dt need ultimate and throw net and press Q [ but more weak and net is more restricted ]. without dt's net, GS's Aos is 3.5 times strong than dt.
    and dt's level up stats is worst than Gs, so all of gem should be Damage/CH/CD excepted cosmic,
    but GS left 1 CH spot, so can use MH, [ have more HP ]
    at U9, as dt, i'm so happy, but at U10 not do so much.

    however, i know other class[ Tomb, chlor and etc ] is worse than DT, so just waiting for fin their rework [ toooooo long .. ] [ before DT, i was chlor so know this pain ]

    i have a lot of dissatisfaction for DT, [ like bug and short-term DPS... ] but i agree GS is focus now...

    ty for reply and this opinion. only a few person said GS should be debuff. and more few person write article.
    this article is very nice. at least i think so.

    have a good day~


    p.s. i didn't well this system[pose quick reply,.. just use ctrl c / v ]

  3. #13
    I would consider this unintended behaviour that drastically affects Gunslinger and its strength. The class gem was intended to lower your firing speed to balance it out, but the inflation of attack speed in the game has broken this and further added to the disgusting GS meta we've been in for years. I really hope your suggested attack rate fix gets implemented, if anything just so we can see some more diversity.

    I know a lot of people will disagree with me because Gunslinger is the most popular class by a landslide. I'm not here to argue with Gunslingers. I will say, however, that if Gunslinger had this fix implemented and was no longer nearly 1.33x stronger than most other classes we'd see Gunslinger play rate drop drastically. Nobody plays Gunslinger for the thrilling gameplay. The class has 0 unique identity beyond being the highest consistent DPS. (by a landslide) Any ranged class can jump in place and shoot down. This is not unique to Gunslinger. The class is old, boring, and only popular due to damage. With that in mind, why isn't Gunslinger on the rework list? Not only would a rework bring it more in line with the rest of the classes, it'd also make Gunslinger actually fun to play. Since Gunslinger is the most popular class currently if the rework was fun we'd see a ton of players engaging in playing the game again.

    I'm a firm believer that balanced classes is extremely important for Trove. Nobody wants to find out that the class they picked is god awful in comparison to another. Class balance is important for player retention and general fun and enjoyment while playing. I can guarantee that the majority of players who pick a class like Chloro or Tomb Raiser because the mechanics sound cool end up quitting because they feel inferior to other players of their level once they hit midgame. Nobody wants to stop playing what they enjoy and pick up Gunslinger just because they feel forced too by difficult progression and the *meta*.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demisedulous View Post
    I would consider this unintended behaviour that drastically affects Gunslinger and its strength. The class gem was intended to lower your firing speed to balance it out, but the inflation of attack speed in the game has broken this and further added to the disgusting GS meta we've been in for years. I really hope your suggested attack rate fix gets implemented, if anything just so we can see some more diversity.
    Yep, it's definitely unintended. I'd love to see more diversity as well, it's really sad that GS is such ahead of every class (an example to show how broken it is: I got top 34 in DOTM ultra with a team that had 1rev and 7gs (in literally one try, and not perfect execution from everyone)).
    Can't say that it's only the fault of CB if GS is broken, it's just that his DPS goes insanely high when his lunar lancer subclass procs... and even without that he still has really good DPS


    Quote Originally Posted by Demisedulous View Post
    I know a lot of people will disagree with me because Gunslinger is the most popular class by a landslide. I'm not here to argue with Gunslingers. I will say, however, that if Gunslinger had this fix implemented and was no longer nearly 1.33x stronger than most other classes we'd see Gunslinger play rate drop drastically.
    Actually even with my fix I'm pretty sure the Gunslinger play rate wouldn't drop drastically because it wouldn't make him a bad class, very far from that. As I already said, he would still have very good dps with insane Crowd Control / AoE.

    It would make it drop a bit because people who likes other classes more than GS could play them without being too far behind in damage.
    Of course it won't make classes like Tomb Raiser viable but at least an ice sage/pirate captain/fae trickster/dracolyte/vanguardian with the 50% MD class bonus would do a little bit more single-target burst dps than a gunslinger with 0% MD class bonus (and gunslinger would still have better AoE damage than IS/PC/FT/VG and more long term dps than pirate captain.) Would add more diversity, far from perfect diversity but still way better than it currently is. With just one simple quick fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demisedulous View Post
    Nobody plays Gunslinger for the thrilling gameplay. The class has 0 unique identity beyond being the highest consistent DPS. (by a landslide) Any ranged class can jump in place and shoot down. This is not unique to Gunslinger. The class is old, boring, and only popular due to damage. With that in mind, why isn't Gunslinger on the rework list? Not only would a rework bring it more in line with the rest of the classes, it'd also make Gunslinger actually fun to play. Since Gunslinger is the most popular class currently if the rework was fun we'd see a ton of players engaging in playing the game again.
    Yep, I agree that Gunslinger needs a rework. But since the rework isn't coming anytime soon, it would be cool if he could just get fixed for now so that we don't have to wait like a year with a broken class and 0 diversity x)

    Quote Originally Posted by Demisedulous View Post
    I'm a firm believer that balanced classes is extremely important for Trove. Nobody wants to find out that the class they picked is god awful in comparison to another. Class balance is important for player retention and general fun and enjoyment while playing. I can guarantee that the majority of players who pick a class like Chloro or Tomb Raiser because the mechanics sound cool end up quitting because they feel inferior to other players of their level once they hit midgame. Nobody wants to stop playing what they enjoy and pick up Gunslinger just because they feel forced too by difficult progression and the *meta*.
    I completely agree with that, I have pretty much nothing more to add to what you said here. Also one of the strong points of Trove is having 16 different classes that you can switch to anytime you want on the same account (and if it wasn't the case I wouldn't be playing Trove anymore since a looong time), with the same inventory and everything, not separated at all. So if it's to only use like 2 or 3 of these class... it's sad.

    Thank you for answering to my post.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Chronozilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demisedulous View Post
    I really hope your suggested attack rate fix gets implemented, if anything just so we can see some more diversity.
    Except you wont because the game will just be all pirate captains instead. Everybody always needs something to cry nerf about.

    I would strongly suggest looking through youtube or something for speedruns before mantle of power, that was back before gems when balancing things was alot easier and as a result, you saw alot of diversity.
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  6. #16
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    It was a lot more diversity because people had no idea what they were doing, it was a blind way of doing speedruns.

    Nowadays, modding has evolved a lot and that allowed us to dive deeper into understanding each class in a very precise matter.

    Before MOP you would just say "let's try x,y,z setup and see what the output is" , nowadays people know how to control DPS test. I myself used to do DPS tests, but nowadays I'm completely understanding the mechanics of a class, and I just simply use math and spreadsheets, where I can control variables and the math will tell me what the final damage output can be.

    So, of course nowadays people go for the strongest class, because precision is way higher. The "variety" back in the day was just as a result of not enough knowledge or resources.

    Today, GS is back, mostly because of the new AS% introduced into the game. Rev is basically replacing CB, PC takes too long to setup and it's not good for low times, but for longer runs, PC shines.

    Also there are other viable classes too, there CAN be variety, but it's not efficient according to the numbers, and people just want the best damage, the numbers never lie. Of course, there are the people who actually play the a class because they enjoy it and that's perfectly fine.

    But variety will never exist, because with every new update, the smallest new thing can completely change the whole meta and RIP variety.

    Imo, the game needs more emblems and flasks, to expand the strategies that can be crafted, these would impact all the classes in the game and possibly shift the entire meta completely.

    Just my 2 cents.

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Tortorion's Avatar
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    This is not the first thread about nerfing GS if I'm not wrong. Old ones didn't change much, this one probably wont too. It's much easier and faster to nerf 1 class than buff all other classes. Not all classes can speedrun, but the game is not only about speedrunning. GS's damage might be OP, but it's not too OP - hard exploit. Gunslinger will be always as a meta in speedruns, the updates only change how many Gunslingers can be in one run. Nerfing him should do the same thing, number of GS in one run should be reduced, but he shoudn't be removed from speedrunning completely. I can be wrong here tbh.

    A few classes got reworked. Before the BB gem you could run as a IS/VG/DR/FT/DT, because 50/25% buff and % increased damage from all sources was a decent combo. Speedruns with 8 different classes were decent too. If the speedruns right now are mostly 1x Rev, 7x GS then we came back to the past.


    More emblems and flasks wont do much here. We have 15 flasks and 24 emblems. Half of emblems and flasks stay unused. There is not much to do here. In speedruns you only want damage. One emblem slots is always reserved for Martial/Arcane, the second slot depend on class.

    And yeah. For that amount of active speedrunners, how many of them actually did the math? Not many I guess.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronozilla View Post
    Except you wont because the game will just be all pirate captains instead. Everybody always needs something to cry nerf about.
    That Makes Sense. People Will Always Cry About The Best Class
    Why Nerf It Though? Let It Stay On The Top 1 Just Buff All The Other Classes, That Makes More Sense
    Why Try To Add Diversity If The Game Will Always Have a Best DPS Class Right?

    The Gunslinger Is Clearly On Another Level From Other Classes, Even The 50% Bonus Damage From St Is Not Enough To Make People Look For Another Class For Speedrunning
    The GS Crowd Control Is So Powerful That Even If It's Dps Was Way Lower It Would Still Be Used For ST In General.

    Even If Pirate Captain Become The New Broken Meta, We Can Just Go After Him. There's No Problem In Having a Meta Class If That Class Deals 20% - 30% More Damage Than The Others. But Gunslinger Is Clealy On Another Level, It's Easy To Use, Has a Huge AoE, The Best Dps And Keep It's Damage For a Long Period.

    I Know People Don't Like Nerfs But It's Been Years That The Gunslinger Is A Broken Class For ST (Not Just Speedrunning) Even After All Those Class Reworks
    Also The Class Gem Was Supposed To Reduce Your AS, Not to Give You More

  9. #19
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    Ok, sorry for responding a bit late but I didn't thought it would take me so much time to write that answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arion4K View Post
    PC takes too long to setup and it's not good for low times, but for longer runs, PC shines.
    You have plenty of time to setup before the DOTM spawns. Well, it does mean that your ults are standing there not shooting for multiple seconds but even with that you won't be out of potions before the run ends. (4 ults before dotm spawns + 2 ults after she spawned, you have enough potions for that since safe times currently lasts about 9-10 seconds.)
    And even for longer runs I doubt PC is currently better than GS (and if it is it's probably by a tiny bit), especially for really longer runs where PC gets out of potions or needs to drink them slower. (but if you can show me a video example or actual numbers that proves me wrong I'd be happy to see that, it's not that I don't beleive you but words are just words, anyone can say anything without it necessarily being true/up to date.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tortorion View Post
    This is not the first thread about nerfing GS if I'm not wrong. Old ones didn't change much, this one probably wont too. It's much easier and faster to nerf 1 class than buff all other classes. Not all classes can speedrun, but the game is not only about speedrunning. GS's damage might be OP, but it's not too OP - hard exploit. Gunslinger will be always as a meta in speedruns, the updates only change how many Gunslingers can be in one run. Nerfing him should do the game thing, number of GS in one run should be reduced, but he shoudn't be removed from speedrunning completely. I can be wrong here tbh.
    Gunslinger's damage is very good without being too OP when your attack speed doesn't reach over 300%. When your lunar lancer subclass procs and your AS% reaches 400... it's broken. As I said, I just want him to benefit from up to 300 AS% max, like every other class. And even if his AS% problem was fixed, he would still be a very good dps with crazy crowd control, so he'll always be a good class.
    I agree he shouln't be removed from speedrunning completely, but 7gs 1rev is just... back to early 2018 meta (before most classes reworks) with just rev instead of candy barb.
    I also know that this thread probably won't change anything but if I don't try anything I have 0% chance of making things change (in what I 'm pretty sure would be a good way, fixing an unintended feature (if we can call that a feature) to add diversity to the played classes), so I still try.
    Also there's a little difference between this thread and others: other threads were mostly complaning about Gunslinger's damage (from what I've seen), I'm complaining about the way he benefits from AS% over 300, unlike every other classes, which makes him unbalanced. I'm not asking to reduce his damage per shot, I'm asking to fix something unintended that starts really causing problems now that AS% can reach higher values.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tortorion View Post
    A few classes got reworked. Before the BB gem you could run as a IS/VG/DL/FT/DT, because 50/25% buff and % increased damage from all sources was a decent combo. Speedruns with 8 different classes were decent too. If the speedruns right now are mostly 1x Rev, 7x GS then we came back to the past.
    Berserk Battler isn't the only problem, it's an accumulation of two things:
    New things that gives more AS% (Berserk Battler, the new dragon and crystal 3 gear), which makes Gunslinger's AS% reach even higher values (up to 400% now when your lunar lancer subclass procs...)
    And more damage because of new gems and gear, which makes speedruns shorter, which means lunar lancer subclass is active for a longer % of the time of the run.
    Before crystal combat update, you reached over 300 AS% (342% if my memory's good) for 6 seconds in a ~16 seconds run (not talking about top time here but decent times, like top ~30), which means it was active ~37.5% of the duration of the run.
    Now, you reach over 300 AS% (400 AS% now) for 6 seconds in a ~8 seconds run, which means active ~75% of the duration of the run. Which is why you see 7gs 1rev getting top ~30 times (even top ~20 actually x) ).

    And outside of speedruns, lunar lancer subclass is still active up to 25% of the time (6 seconds duration with 24 seconds cooldown (cooldown starts as soon as it activates, not when it ends)), so it's broken as well outside of speedruns (especially since Gunslinger already has good damage and insane Crowd Control and AoE).
    Also I'd like to note that even just before the crystal combat update where speedruns only had 1 (or 2 at max) Gunslinger(s) in them, Gunslinger was still massively present outside of speedruns, because, as I already said, he's a really good ranged dps with insane crowd control. And, as I already said as well, I even proposed to make his attack rate *0.8 instead of his AS% being *0.75 to balance the fact that he wouldn't benefit from up to 300 AS% anymore (which, as I already said as well, I think is not needed).


    [QUOTE=Tortorion;814612]And yeah. For that amount of active speedrunners, how many of them actually did the math? Not many I guess.[QUOTE=Tortorion;814612]
    Apparently not, since people say that Pirate Captain currently deals more damage than Gunslinger... (instead of just saying it, show me a Pirate Captain that deals more damage than my Gunslinger (and I'm far from being a good Gunslinger), then I'll believe you. As I already said, words are just words, anyone can say anything without it necessarily being true)
    But I'd be happy to dpstest every class my gems are compatible with (GS/PC/DT/IS/FT/DL). (some people prefer doing the math, I personally have a slight preference doing the dpstests)


    Quote Originally Posted by Chronozilla View Post
    Except you wont because the game will just be all pirate captains instead. Everybody always needs something to cry nerf about.
    The game won't be all pirate captains instead. As I already said I don't even remember how many times, Gunslinger is a ranged high DPS class with insane Crowd Control and AoE, that can choose which enemy he hits, hits multiple of them at a time and can keep his highest dps for about a minute, while Pirate Captain is a melee high burst dps class mostly single target, even though his ult has a bit of AoE, doesn't choose which enemy he hits (hi little turrets that hits DOTM's invincible gun), turrets that doesn't even hit enemies in lava, takes time to setup and has to burn his potions in no time if he wants to compete with Gunslinger's dps.
    So even if Pirate Captain does a bit more burst dps, Gunslinger will stay a way more played class for shadow towers (my suggestion wouldn't make Gunslinger garbage, it would just fix an unintended feature (if you can call that a feature) that makes him broken).
    Here's a comparison of a good Pirate Captain strat's DPS VS a regular GS strat's DPS, with and without lunar lancer subclass (reminder: Gunslinger's attack speed doesn't reach over 300% without the lunar lancer subclass (and I'm 7% away from max AS% so my Gunslinger's damage could be a tiny bit higher)): https://youtu.be/O6z2SXdg_e4

    Numbers for 12s and 10s:
    PC with LL subclass: 18.5% in 12 seconds | 15.3% in 10 seconds (LL subclass activated at about 5.5s)
    PC without LL subclass... well, I didn't dpstested it and I want to post this answer before next year (and chaos vial has a bit of randomness) so I just removed the 10% MD boost from the LL subclass, which would be 18.2% in 12 seconds and 15.1% in 10 seconds. It's still with the AS% boost from the lunar lancer subclass though, which doesn't make a huge difference for PC but still a small one, so I don't know exactly what it would be but it would be a bit lower than this.
    GS with LL subclass: 20-20.3% in 12 seconds (it was 20% at 12 secs and 20.3% at 12.03 secs but as I already said I'm missing 7 AS%, so with these it would've been 20.3% in 12 secs) | 17.1% in 10 seconds
    GS without LL subclass: 17.5-17.7% in 12 seconds (exact same scenario as above) | 14.4% in 10 seconds
    As you can see, even without LL sub (so without AS% over 300), Gunslinger has good enough damage to speedrun. (a GS with 50% boost would definitely deal more than a PC with 0% boost, at least with my strats, but I really don't see how you could make PC's dps way higher than that (unless being really lucky with the chaos vial and spawning multiple magic damage emblem minions))
    Also, the difference between GS without any subclass and PC with LL subclass is way smaller (~0.8% for 12s and ~0.9% for 10s) than the difference between GS with LL subclass and PC with LL subclass as well (~1.8% for 12s and 10s, and it wasn't a perfect spawn for my Gunslinger so he took a bit of time to start hitting).
    And talking outside of speedruns, as I already said multiple times, Gunsligner has lots of advantages over Pirate Captain (not going to list all of them again), so even if his burst dps is a bit lower than Pirate Captain, he'll still be way more used.
    And also, Pirate Captain's damage outside of speedruns definitely isn't like this since this dpstest was with a strat that uses all my potions in ~12-14 seconds (4 ults before dotm spawns + 2 after) and needs almost 20 seconds of setup (if you count the turrets upgrading)


    Sorry for the wait (more than 24h), rushed the end a bit because I wanted to post this today
    Thank you for your answers.

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