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Thread: [Discussion] Skill vs. Grind

  1. #21
    Senior Member Arctech's Avatar
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    I think it is important to keep death defying vial in the game to deal with lag. If a boss is to be defeated in 1 shot, then it should only be possible after farming enough of the next uber.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member KoBeWi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctech View Post
    I think it is important to keep death defying vial in the game so it's not unplayable.
    ftfy

    Death-Defying really helped me when I was starting the game and the lag was unbearable. But now I don't really have problems with lags and still, without Death-Defying I'd keep dying over and over. I have no idea how some people claim they can play without it (Chronozilla) as you get randomly one-shotted everywhere everytime, unless you are a tank with 5+ mil hp (but then you can't really kill anything). I mean, how do you even deal with enemies that teleport to you and instantly unleash charged attack? Or with enemies that teleport you to themselves and then unleash a pulling attack so you can't escape? Or with group of enemies that either keep shooting faster than you can dodge (cooldown!) or swarm you with melee attacks in no-jump zone, so all you can do is run in circles and when you attack, you die? I find this game literally unplayable without Death-Defying (especially with enemies that can pretty much drain few flasks in a second) and my mention about nerfing it wasn't actually serious. Pls don't.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvik View Post
    Thanks for the more detailed explanation about your ideas. Playing both a Patron account, and several FTP accounts, I want to add the following observations.

    The current #1 limiting factor on the FTP accounts is the amount of free bag space when doing dungeons. I.E. your heading for a loot collector before you run out of flasks.

    With the current Club quests requiring you to go back to your club, This will remain a conflict of interest. You will not get very far in the new area if your still trying to maximize your adventurine farming at the same time. So this bonus multiplier would be a big penalty to the club adventures if the Devs do not allow us to renew the club quests on the fly. This is another reason why the corner has been obsoleted in the current game.

    The no join option seems more of a negative to friends joining you than the benefit of "stopping alts". First of all, there is no guarantee that your friend will join that same U10 world that you joined. Even if they do join the same world, they might be put to a different spawn point and you cant see each other on the map, and the rally blade puts them to a random person, and not necessarily joining you. IMO there is more negative to this than the supposed benefits.

    That what I can think of right now.

    Join-Friend-Teleporting

    While I agree with the friend system beeing a hassle for friends, It is still a system that would instantly destroy the whole point of my suggestion if it was fully allowed as in other uber worlds.


    Aside alts and friends there is another issue: Leechers.

    If someone loses all multipliers when engaging combat and dying, then there will be a high tendency to just leech off of someone else's work. While this can be prevented with limited world access, it will instantly become a serious contra-productive mess at the moment when you just can join someone over and over again. Some peoples will even get paid for just doing the dungeon while the leechers sit safely aside and each time he runs out of his DD flasks, he will just return to hub or whatever and join back his leecher 'friend' to continue. I fail to see the excitement in 39 peoples standing on top of a dungeon with 1 player working and killing.



    However, it might be a compromise to allow to join a world one single time. This could happen via normal portal useage or via friend request. Teleporting a 2nd time must not be able to work though, even inside the world.



    The Adventurine issue
    Well, to say it blunt: Adventurine is already a horrible mess.
    There were so many suggestions and cries to fix it and/or to make gathering adventurine more bearable. But Trion's reaction was to nerf the only way to effectively farm Adventurine. So... right now.... Adventurine needs a serious revamp anyways, but this would belong into another topic...



    As a compromise with the current messed system, I can give this suggestion:
    Have a new U-10 Adventurine quest that wants untypically high things with equally high rewards. Just take a normal quest and multiply it with 100. This quest can only be solved in U10, which would encourage long world farming to begin with.



    This quest will also accept any biomes. So no hindrance into the flow of farming.



    Furthermore this quest is not intended to be finished in 1 day. See it as long-time project that you can finish over multiple days and once you are done, you get the big boom reward.





    Quote Originally Posted by KoBeWi View Post
    ftfy

    Death-Defying really helped me when I was starting the game and the lag was unbearable. But now I don't really have problems with lags and still, without Death-Defying I'd keep dying over and over. I have no idea how some people claim they can play without it (Chronozilla) as you get randomly one-shotted everywhere everytime, unless you are a tank with 5+ mil hp (but then you can't really kill anything). I mean, how do you even deal with enemies that teleport to you and instantly unleash charged attack? Or with enemies that teleport you to themselves and then unleash a pulling attack so you can't escape? Or with group of enemies that either keep shooting faster than you can dodge (cooldown!) or swarm you with melee attacks in no-jump zone, so all you can do is run in circles and when you attack, you die? I find this game literally unplayable without Death-Defying (especially with enemies that can pretty much drain few flasks in a second) and my mention about nerfing it wasn't actually serious. Pls don't.

    There are many classes that can do things without DDV. One beeing Fae, other are tanks and also those classes with a hybrid build. If you instantly die with one single attack from an enemy, then you have too less health, if you are honest.


    DDV should not be removed. There should be just an environment that encourages other flasks, so DDV becomes a starting help, but not beeing that ultimate role which it has right now.


    You should be able to survive by player/class skill, not by simply using the very same item on each class by default.


    Btw, I never used DDV. Bandollier was my flask of choice in early game.

  4. #24
    Senior Member KoBeWi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyAlexanderNULL View Post
    If you instantly die with one single attack from an enemy, then you have too less health, if you are honest..[/COLOR]
    On my main I have 700k hp, because I got too many "perfect gems". But I feel like if I had even 5 times more, it's just a matter of few seconds before I get killed. It's just almost impossible for me to both attack and survive at the same time, without everything taking forever to finish. But actually it's a big problem only with ST. I can breeze through U9 adventure world with 11k Vanguardian, while I can't complete U8 Shadow Tower with the same class.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by KoBeWi View Post
    On my main I have 700k hp, because I got too many "perfect gems". But I feel like if I had even 5 times more, it's just a matter of few seconds before I get killed. It's just almost impossible for me to both attack and survive at the same time, without everything taking forever to finish. But actually it's a big problem only with ST. I can breeze through U9 adventure world with 11k Vanguardian, while I can't complete U8 Shadow Tower with the same class.

    This is actually a perfect example which reflects the idea of this topic: You are not supposed to either breeze through end game u9 or completing Shadow Tower with one single class all alone by yourself.


    Trion did mention it a few times that STs have always been meant as a party thing. So instead of soloing it with one single VG, you would actually want to have a group of 8 peoples with different classes inside that ST. To be fair, they can be also around 11k PR. Of course it will not be a 'breeze through', but it is possible.... but honestly: who wants to struggle and to challenge yourself if you just can ask a high player to do it...


    Lags on the other side is a serious issue. A friend of mine had the same problem, but for him, it worked when he did has a second look at all his settings when he lowered this or that.


    Do you have a serious suggestion of how to make Trove combat more interesting/skill based? As one with serious lags, you have an interesting point of view that can contribute here.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KoBeWi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyAlexanderNULL View Post
    Do you have a serious suggestion of how to make Trove combat more interesting/skill based? As one with serious lags, you have an interesting point of view that can contribute here.
    I didn't say I have serious lags D: That's how the game used to be for me, but since then I upgraded both my connection and laptop to the point, where if something wrong is happening with the game, I can be sure that's not an issue on my side.

    As for the combat, it's hard to say how to make it better. Best example of good combat in this game for me is DotM. I find this boss to be perfectly balanced and intuitive to fight with. You are battling a single enemy with attacks you can predict and avoid if you are focused enough. In other scenarios, it's either too much happening (enemies all over around you, constantly attacking and all) or bad designed arena, where environment doesn't let you properly avoid attacks due to not enough space or weird structures in the way (lavafall shadow arena is the perfect example here).

    Few days ago I tried to solo ultra Pinata with 23.8k Chloromancer. I didn't make it past first arena, even though I should be able to do it. First problem was the lavafall arena, which is stupid in itself, but when I tried to draw enemies outside the center, they pretty much overwhelmed me. Chloromancer can't attack from air effectively, so I tried to drop plants from above and go on ground to restore energy. When I was in air, I kept getting hit by catapults. But after first wave, there were the boss enemies. They were the worst. A teleporting poundcake - you try to avoid it, but it just appears next to you and hits for ultra high damage (whispering "nothing personal, kid"). While you can somehow avoid catapults when you dodge enough, I have no idea how to deal with teleporting-one-hitting enemies. Even when you are in group with a tank, such enemy can just teleport to you and randomly kill.

    Dunno, maybe the game is just too fast. I just can't handle all the enemies and the fact that I'm usually fighting in awkward spaces, which often get destroyed even by enemy abilities to the point of being unusable, doesn't really help. I agree that soloing Shadow Tower is a bad idea, but even in group, I find lots of situations when I can't really do anything to survive. It's hard to avoid anything when there's 8 players and 50 enemies on your screen in a room which can't even fit the camera. Also, I feel like the game expects you to stay in air to survive, but half of the classes (including my main) are at the same time penalized by it, so you can't stay on ground because you die and can't stay in air because you can't attack (Hydrakken is the best example of such case, even with a tank). Every time I try to play "skillfully", it doesn't end up good and I just go back to exploiting DDV again.

  7. #27
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    How about instead of resetting this bonus multiplier triggering on leaving the world, you had it reset when you used the rejuvinator to refill your flasks. I.e. you would be able to leave and empty your bags, and come back to the world without loosing your progress. This would also potentially allow you to go do a collection challenge and come back to the place that you had been before your 5 minute break.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyAlexanderNULL View Post
    Join-Friend-Teleporting

    While I agree with the friend system beeing a hassle for friends, It is still a system that would instantly destroy the whole point of my suggestion if it was fully allowed as in other uber worlds.


    Aside alts and friends there is another issue: Leechers.

    If someone loses all multipliers when engaging combat and dying, then there will be a high tendency to just leech off of someone else's work. While this can be prevented with limited world access, it will instantly become a serious contra-productive mess at the moment when you just can join someone over and over again. Some peoples will even get paid for just doing the dungeon while the leechers sit safely aside and each time he runs out of his DD flasks, he will just return to hub or whatever and join back his leecher 'friend' to continue. I fail to see the excitement in 39 peoples standing on top of a dungeon with 1 player working and killing.



    However, it might be a compromise to allow to join a world one single time. This could happen via normal portal useage or via friend request. Teleporting a 2nd time must not be able to work though, even inside the world.

    RE Leechers: Turn off the rally banner. Most end game players have already done this. Also, I don't see what leechers has to do with if your friend can join you from the friends list. Your giving an extreme example (39 people) when by my definition, a friend is not a unwanted leecher. I'm sorry, but I don't see leechers as being a valid point for your argument.

    This is getting at the core of what is the MMO. Your suggestion of the forced solo play is getting away from the MMO aspect of the game, and I do not see it as a good direction to take. I have more fun playing Trove in a group than I do playing solo, so your taking away this ability to play together I see it as a very negative change to the game, and I can't support it.

  8. #28
    Member INN3R_C4L4M1TY's Avatar
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    The dev stream just happened and this question was answered:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirokiri View Post
    Will u10 just be like u9, but with different biomes and tougher enemies, or will there be more to do in it other than farming dungeons?
    One focus for us is adjusting and making improvements to the objectives and dungeons. We aren't going to change the core of combat that players are familiar with but we will be looking into changing the ways that you will accomplish those different objectives.
    With that in mind, I feel like we should focus the next part of the conversation more on the dungeons and objectives, what the skill:grind ratio is there, and how it could be adjusted if you think it needs adjusting.

    I'll start. I think that u10's dungeons should allow players more options when it comes to grinding for longer or facing a tougher challenge. A good way to do this, in my opinion, would be to add a type of dungeon that's just an arena to face one ST-like boss.

    This dungeon would be tougher than dungeons usually are, but would give more rewards, counting more towards tomes and any new u10 story quests, giving more gem boxes, loot, and having greater odds at containing a chaos chest, allowing you to reach your goals faster should you accept the greater challenge.

  9. #29
    To be honest, I think that U10 will be a battle-themed thing without dungeons necessarily needed like rampages.


    I think you have something like 'help, help us' from a geodian and then you teleport to a world, nuke some bosses and when bosses are dead, you might get some rewards and are back at geode hub.


    I just expect this and be positivelly surprised of what Trion will actually do :P


    @Thorvik:
    It is quite the opposide, but just as toxic.
    In another MMORPG, there was a system developed where high players do activelly want leechers and leechers were paying the strong and mighty to level them/ to do stuff for them. It was/(or maybe still is, I stopped caring about that game completelly) a completelly accepted system where the leechers did pay a high end player in the morning and came back in the evening while the high player still was doing his grind stuff. Just say 'i give you X flux and you leech me for Y hours.


    This is luckily something that is frowned in Trove for the majority and is not a big deal in Trove.


    But it is a future that has to be avoided. Maybe I am just salty on this topic, since I do not want to see my favorite game sink down in that mess like a previous game did.




    @KoBeWi /on topic
    Reading your post gave me a though on something:
    Most classes work by dealing direct damage. Straight forward. And that is it. While e.g. Vanguardian offers some new ways to deal this straightforward damage, it is still straightforward damage. I would like seeing more focus on the special traits on classes and mastering those traits would significantly increase damage - we can still come back about monster/ world behaviour change later.


    So let us take Dino Tamer for example:
    His special thing is summoning allies, which unfortunally are all pretty much the same straight-forward dps, more or less. And then there is his Uniquet poisioning ability.



    So, what would be about adding a new passive effect called 'Class mastery' or 'Player Skill' or whatever name fits.


    In case of Dino Tamer, it would give more interaction between his dinos. maybe also remove RNG from his summons and let him summon a specific dino by pressing 1. After a dino was summoned, pressing '1' the next time will cause the next dino in line to be spawned. Holding the 1-key for 1 second will skip one dino manually without starting cool down, to give you controll about which specific dino to spawn next.


    Additional, the dinos will get a new interaction: Minnie-T-Rex will deal more damage (double? tripple? whatever multiplier is justified) when it attacks while the bird-dino did stun the target. The bird dino will be reduced to having 1 health point (or just veeery low). Additionally, minnie-T-Rex and birdy-dino try to stay as far away as possible from the tanky dino, while still beeing in hit range of the same monster that the tanky dino is attacking. Of course, monsters will not attack one of the other dinos if a tanky dino is alive.


    On top of that, Snare DoT will increase for each low-health-stun bird that a dino Tamer did Summon.




    Like this, you can keep playing DT as before, but mastering the class gives you an advantage. And similar setups that favors the special traits of a class can be made about other classes, too.

  10. #30
    Member INN3R_C4L4M1TY's Avatar
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    I think you may be on to something with the interaction thing, and while, as I mentioned, we really should move on to objectives, the idea of interaction within a class is still definitely worth discussing.

    However, I think that, instead of being a core class mechanic, the interaction you thought of should be added in the form of an alternate class gem. So, for example, you'd have a DT class gem that allows you to hold 1, then press 2, 3, or 4 while holding it to pick a dino instead of having the game choose one and adds a few interactions between them.

    Perhaps this could also be done with a few other classes. Like a GS class gem that, instead of the super powerful ult thing, makes an enemy take 25-50% more damage from all sources for a second or two if you hit them with your 1 ability while on the ground, making you more of a team player and encouraging risky play.

    Or a TR class gem that changes the ult so that, instead of summoning a grave goliath, you sacrifice the minions and absorb the power yourself, giving you glowing eyes, changing up your abilities, and absorbing any lost souls you gain to increase the duration.

    Your m1 ability would be the AoE m1 from the normal 1 ability, but with more damage. The m2 ability would be a beam that locks on to a single target and quickly drains their health, slowly damaging you in the process. Your 1 ability would use up all of your energy plus a little bit more to prevent you from spamming it and deals damage depending on how much energy you had. Your 2 ability would simply cancel the ult, like with DT.

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