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Thread: [Discussion] Skill vs. Grind

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pFurini View Post
    Any ideas on how to make u10 focused on 'skills'?

    One of the biggest issues in current late game is that ALL classes can just 1hit u9 bosses.

    Yea sure, one-hitting sounds fine and nice, but on the other side it dulls gameplay down to the point where even class cannon builds can not only farm equally to balanced builds, but also completelly surpass everything that is not glass cannon.

    At the same time, even if not using Death Defying Vial (DDV), there is a good way to never run out of flasks even without cornerstones, if you just trigger Conjurer's Crucible often enough via immense high Magic Find.


    To solve this aspect, have these adjustments here:
    1. Make sure that literally no class has any skill that can 1-hit a dungeon boss: No flasked SH ulti, no flasked NN shuriken, no other class. This is a fact that needs to be given to ensure that glass cannons have to actually enter a battle and only at this moment they get punished for beeing glass cannon. Currently everything just dies before it becomes dangerous, even if it actually had a potentially dangerous mechanic... a half second time to unleash its 'dangerous' potential just makes it a laugh show.

    2. Have Dungeons drop no items: Nothing that can trigger Magic Find and therefore Conjurers Crucible. That thing just triggers far too often. There might be invaders that spawn once in a while that drop stuff, but the main source beeing dungeons shouldn't be available.

    3. No Cornerstones in U-10: We already have seen it in Everdark. It is one thing to just clear 1 dungeon and then go off after your flasks ran dry or to actually have to live with a set number of flasks and get the most out of a very few flasks.

    4. Have all Dungeons drop a new material instead of items: This material will be used for different upgrades and whatever you usually want from dungeons to begin with. Also: as more dungeons you complete, as higher a multiplyer you will get. So emptying one DDV stack will be less rewarding than live with a damage/health build and beeing able to farm for a longer time.

    5. In regards to point (4), also be not able to teleport to friends within this world and once you died, you get teleported back to the Hub - just as if your GAS would run empty in a Geode Cave. This will both, prevent alt-usage and also leeching to a certain degree.

    Edit: Rally Blade will still be available.

    Edit:
    6. Disable the teleporting command '/joinworld': This ensures that a player can not just refill flasks in another world.


    Now imagine u-9 without cornerstones and without magic-find-triggers where monsters will definitelly force you into actual combat instead of 1hitting where you also can not simply invite alts for leeching or return to hub for flask refilling. And as longer as you farm in the same world, as more you will gain there, but die once and you return to Hub.

    Once people drop the idea of DDV beeing the allmighty thing when you need to actually engage combat and Cunjurer's Crucible when you farm tons of dungeons.... well, then other Flasks will automatically become suddenly veeery appealing. Missing Cornerstones also give you a tough decision between re-filling your stock and healing/survivability.

    To be honest.... the current glass-cannon-meta sucks out of boredome.

  2. #12
    Senior Member KoBeWi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerDj View Post
    What I like about the Dreadnought is that its attacks, for the most part, can actually be read, so you're able to dodge them and avoid damage, therefore giving you benefits for paying attention to the boss and timing your dodges.
    I don't feel like this about Dreadnought at all. Not sure why, but I can't get how to avoid his attacks. It might be that the battle is too chaotic or dunno. I often get caught in the fire beam and lose few flasks as a result. Also, lasers.

    My favorite boss is Daughter of the Moon. This one has really telegraphed attacks, which are really easy to avoid if you just pay attention and the battle is actually enjoyable.

  3. #13
    Senior Member fruitie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaizer killer View Post
    New utility emblems sound interesting given the amount they effect combat. Having more combinations tend to be good and I know berserk definitely has a trade off most out of the emblems. Mobs like the flametron that had a shield and took some teamwork was nice or even more enemies with unique things to them would be fun.
    Eh. Personally I disliked flame-o-tron. It was basically a damage sponge that one shot people so there wasn't really any interaction with it apart from stay away and shoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoBeWi View Post
    The easiest way to increase difficulty and make the game skill-based is to (God forbid) nerf/remove Death-Defying.
    Even if they did, it would be a bit hit and miss. In some ways it wouldn't really make things difficult, people would still be able to just dps everything without any worries. However I'm not sure things like DD would be realistic to beat without cheesing it with an ice sage, particularly that 1 shot laser with a crappy tell every few seconds. Right now it can be done with little concern as long as the tank remains focus, but without the crutch it's be too much while other STs provide the same reward for less effort.


    Quote Originally Posted by HolyAlexanderNULL View Post
    stuff
    Tbh I quite like conjurers. If they nerfed it and removed cornerstone, it'd be pretty annoying and make the game more of a loading screen simulator. The biggest problem is that most of your damage comes from flasks, which is quite silly imo as the healing function comes 2nd to dps... If say arcane and martial were just say 10-20% dps boost for a longer duration, and perhaps other emblems were more useful, then less flask refills would be less limiting.

  4. #14
    I think the main objectives of Trove are collect and upgrade.
    As nowadays almost itmes can be obtained through killing enemies & farming dungoens as simple. You also can through this way to earn fluxs to buy the collectibles which you didn't get yet too. It would be fun from the start, but when you keep do it again and again, it would be bored. Thats why trove need skills to make the game more playable.

    When the PvP mode came out. I was excited. However at a time, devs just gave up to optimize the mode and ignored it in future patch.
    The coins and racing challenges are another great idea for make the game diversified like minecraft, but finally they just putted it on hourly challenge only.
    That two things made me disappointed on this game.

    Geode is a new nice try to make the game be fresh tho. It maybe fun if u like mining ores, but not for me.

    Regarding the suggestion skills, I don't think make U10's boss similar with ST boss/rampage, cancel death defying, no cornerstone... are not possible to make the game be playable.
    Make things more difficult does't mean it'll be more fun, sometime it may caused player tired to farm and feel annoying. As the result, they'll buy these items by flux or quit game.

    Trove need to change. Not just keep add collectibles, higher uber worlds and new modes eternal. No matter what they added, the most efficiently way to earn flux "in game" still is farming dungoens, unless they rework the MF.

    So, I rather they change the adverture mode fundamentally. Example for some MMORPGs player can control up to 3 classes in same time instead of 1 to make the classes abilities combination be variety for against different enemies.
    This practice will help player to nimbly use thier classes, it also can encourage player upgrade all classes they have. Since I know almost people included me are only use 2 -3 classes for mainly and the others are sealed after level 30.

  5. #15
    Junior Member HeavenINC_PS4's Avatar
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    Trove is a building game with a fake, slapped-on MMO. The mastery there is much more rewarding. As long as that's true, there's no concern from me.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Sepulcro's Avatar
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    As some one who fell in love with this game in the Beta, before Steam release and even before the introduction of boats, I just want to say that I don't want these things and let me explain why.

    I started in the game Rift. A pure MMO made by Trion that was much more skills based and much more cooperative. It also has a poisonous community that has no patience for new players and measured everything based on skill. There are LOADS of games that have and do exist with these features. Trove was great because it DIDN'T have these features.

    It was casual. It was okay to play it slowly, or quickly. You could build, or dungeon, or PVP, or collect... There was no end game because it wasn't goal driven, Then when they went out of Beta and joined Steam it got a huge influx of new players who kept saying... Make this more like the MMO I just left... Make it more competative... make it more skills based.... It would be like joining a car racing game and then convincing the devs to turn it into a First Person shooter... Well... it succeeded and it's gotten progressively more and more like a traditional MMO and less and less the game that I fell in love with, and you all keep asking for more... If you want a First Person Shooter, go play a first person shooter, stop trying to change a racing game into a First Person Shooter.

    That's just my opinion on the matter.

  7. #17
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    To add my opinion on the matter.

    The changes that HolyAlexanderNULL is proposing are only going to be a temporary fix. If your trying to make it harder for the current end game group, it will last a few months, then as players get more PR and better gear, it wont matter anymore. We will be back to the same over-geared player one shotting the content and the mechanics don't matter anymore.

    If you remove the DDV, then we go back to flasking before, and during combat if we need it. Ok, so this maybe makes it more skill based (Debatable), and you may need to change your gear/gem stats in order to have more health instead of depending on the DDV. Note: I call the DDV the lazy gamer's flask. Set it and forget about flasking. It makes it easier to play the game, I don't flask up as much, but I wasn't worried/concerned about maximizing my DPS. I just wanted to farm some dungeons.

    No Cornerstones - If your going to do this. then you may want to also remove the /getworldid /joinworld functions of the game. As it stands now, I don't currently use cornerstones in U9. I use whatever club world that I am getting the gem quests in to refill flasks and empty bags. Personally, I don't see the point of this change. by itself it will not accomplish what you are wanting it to do without removing the /joinworld function.

    Removing the Join Friends ability, and teleporting back to the Hub: Are we trying to make this a single player grind game and not an MMO? Seriously, what is the point here beyond frustration of the player base? Part of what I do like about the game is the ability to join fellow clubmates and to do things in a group. While this change would make the solo farming crowd happier, its taking away the MMO part of the game.


    While I can see the proposed changes are addressing the question for how to make the game more difficult, I do not agree that they would require more skill in order to play the game. Players will move onto the new Meta and use that to get around any skill requirement until they are once again overpowered for the content. I do not see any benefit to any changes/tuning made in order to make the game more difficult for the current player base at this current point in time snapshot as it will not last long. All that it will do is add more frustration and rage quitting to a game that needs to do more to build the player base.

    I guess I agree with Seplucro Leave the game as it is. Making the game harder isnt necesarily going to require more skill to play it. It just makes it more frustrating to play.

  8. #18
    Senior Member INN3R_C4L4M1TY's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't think improving u10 will be done through removing things, but through adding things. Aside from the 'make it impossible to 1-shot bosses' thing, those suggestions would just make the game more frustrating while taking away the fun of Trove.

    I think that the best thing to do is to add new combat elements in u10. More telegraphed attacks, more enemy abilities, and if the enemies are going to have way more health and do way more damage, they should look like it.

    Have giant enemies that stomp the ground to hit you for massive damage. Have a giant eye in a wall that charges up super lasers. Have some enemies that throw bombs at you with a fuse. Basically, add some enemies that encourage the player to actually move out of the way.

    Add utility emblems like I suggested on page 1. That way, instead of just using your flasks every time you're low on health, or every time you want to do some damage, you'll actually think, 'Hmm... Is it a good idea to use my flask when this bomb is about to explode right next to me if the tradeoff to my super high damage is reduced maneuverability?' or 'I know this enemy has an ability that can make it resist whatever type of damage it's being hit with more, while making it weak to the other. Should I use my flask now to try to kill it fast before it uses it, or should I wait for it to resist magic damage so my utility emblem swaps me to physical and I kill it even faster?'

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by fruitie View Post
    Tbh I quite like conjurers. If they nerfed it and removed cornerstone, it'd be pretty annoying and make the game more of a loading screen simulator. The biggest problem is that most of your damage comes from flasks, which is quite silly imo as the healing function comes 2nd to dps... If say arcane and martial were just say 10-20% dps boost for a longer duration, and perhaps other emblems were more useful, then less flask refills would be less limiting.

    This is where the multiplyer kicks in. The moment you leaver a world, the multiplyer resets. When you need loads of that new material then you start getting pretty much nothing and while farming more and more dungeons without switching world, you start to actually gain more and more per dungeon. Lets say you get 1 unit of the new item in the first dungeon; and you get 2 units in the second dungeon, which will be a total of 3. Dungeon 3 will give you 3 units, which will be a total of 6 already etc etc. After 100 dungeons you get 100 units per dungeon. And after this chain, it would be a very bad thing to just leave the world for refilling flasks in trade off to lose all of your multiplyer.


    Also look that, my suggestion does not directly disable flasks. My suggestion does simply give a setup that favors using other flasks.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvik View Post
    To add my opinion on the matter.

    The changes that HolyAlexanderNULL is proposing are only going to be a temporary fix. If your trying to make it harder for the current end game group, it will last a few months, then as players get more PR and better gear, it wont matter anymore. We will be back to the same over-geared player one shotting the content and the mechanics don't matter anymore.

    This is my first point of my suggestions. It needs to be ensured that nothing can 1hit dungeon bosses ever. Maybe having it related with percantages instead of gear? But this sounds like a bad idea. Another idea would be to make a final cut of max stats and only rise it after releasing a new uber with the same non-1hit-limitation garantueed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvik View Post
    If you remove the DDV, then we go back to flasking before, and during combat if we need it. Ok, so this maybe makes it more skill based (Debatable), and you may need to change your gear/gem stats in order to have more health instead of depending on the DDV. Note: I call the DDV the lazy gamer's flask. Set it and forget about flasking. It makes it easier to play the game, I don't flask up as much, but I wasn't worried/concerned about maximizing my DPS. I just wanted to farm some dungeons.
    Needing more than 1 single flask for one dungeon is how Trove should be imo - given that you are not a Tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvik View Post
    No Cornerstones - If your going to do this. then you may want to also remove the /getworldid /joinworld functions of the game. As it stands now, I don't currently use cornerstones in U9. I use whatever club world that I am getting the gem quests in to refill flasks and empty bags. Personally, I don't see the point of this change. By itself it will not accomplish what you are wanting it to do without removing the /joinworld function.
    Thank you for pointing it out! I actually thought I did mention it, but I forgot to write it down, I did update my previous post. Most likelly because of the multiplyer thing that will punish for world change. Without this command, you can still return to the same world via normal portals if the world is still fresh, but you will still have to restart without your previous accummulated multiplier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvik View Post
    Removing the Join Friends ability, and teleporting back to the Hub: Are we trying to make this a single player grind game and not an MMO? Seriously, what is the point here beyond frustration of the player base? Part of what I do like about the game is the ability to join fellow clubmates and to do things in a group. While this change would make the solo farming crowd happier, its taking away the MMO part of the game.
    No, it will remain a multiplayer game with those suggestions. Rally Blade does still work and friends can still enter the world at the same time and adventure in a group and stay together in a real party with roles like tank, damage, support etc. It just messes up those people who want to invite many alts and only farm with 1 char while inviting 7 others each dungeon.

    While writing that no-friend suggestion, I was thinking about Geode Caves which also do not allow friends to join you. And U-10 is said to be on the surface of Geode after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvik View Post
    While I can see the proposed changes are addressing the question for how to make the game more difficult, I do not agree that they would require more skill in order to play the game. Players will move onto the new Meta and use that to get around any skill requirement until they are once again overpowered for the content. I do not see any benefit to any changes/tuning made in order to make the game more difficult for the current player base at this current point in time snapshot as it will not last long. All that it will do is add more frustration and rage quitting to a game that needs to do more to build the player base.

    I guess I agree with Seplucro Leave the game as it is. Making the game harder isnt necesarily going to require more skill to play it. It just makes it more frustrating to play.
    Idea is to give a wide varity of different flasks usefulness aswell as encouraging group play where you have different 'jobs' aside just plain dps with a single tank. Having varity and allowing a varity of play styles to effectively work together makes a game more interesting.

    You can also think about other flasks of use. Conjurer is not the one and only flask that restores flasks. There are many, many other and very many are actually underrated or simply over-shadowed by 'allmighty' DDV. It would be really awesome to find a way to encourage players to use different flasks and finally have a group where everyone uses another flask that fits best for his or her role inside the party and his/her personal play style.

    The way towards this can be reached on different pathes and my suggestion is just one possibility. If you can suggest changes that will reach this goal more directly, please post it. This is what this topic is about after all

  10. #20
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    Thanks for the more detailed explanation about your ideas. Playing both a Patron account, and several FTP accounts, I want to add the following observations.

    The current #1 limiting factor on the FTP accounts is the amount of free bag space when doing dungeons. I.E. your heading for a loot collector before you run out of flasks.

    With the current Club quests requiring you to go back to your club, This will remain a conflict of interest. You will not get very far in the new area if your still trying to maximize your adventurine farming at the same time. So this bonus multiplier would be a big penalty to the club adventures if the Devs do not allow us to renew the club quests on the fly. This is another reason why the corner has been obsoleted in the current game.

    The no join option seems more of a negative to friends joining you than the benefit of "stopping alts". First of all, there is no guarantee that your friend will join that same U10 world that you joined. Even if they do join the same world, they might be put to a different spawn point and you cant see each other on the map, and the rally blade puts them to a random person, and not necessarily joining you. IMO there is more negative to this than the supposed benefits.

    That what I can think of right now.

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