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Thread: Vanguardian Impressions and Feedback

  1. #1
    Senior Member CryoGX's Avatar
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    Post Vanguardian Impressions and Feedback

    First post in a LONG while, but we're gonna go ahead and dive right into it!

    TL;DR - This class is hits close to the mark mechanically, but is NOT quite there yet. Vanguardian's lack of mobility skills is not justified by its mechanics like other classes that lack them. A couple changes to what skills do will make this class feel INFINITELY more fleshed out. The feel and the fun of this class are much more important than the numbers, imo. Fun first, math second.

    This thread does not take into account the class gem so if it addresses this issue then consider whatever point I make relevant to it to be moot.


    So far, this is a pretty lit class (FINALLY a fist guy!), my dudes, HOWEVER; I do have an argument as to why this class feels incomplete and how it can be fleshed out, and I'm pretty sure you dudes knew this to a degree as to release Vanguardian to us this early, so I really appreciate that decision and the opportunity!



    What I Like

    Summary:
    -Incredible premise, taking from fighting games, in a sense, despite being a hero
    -A true, versatile hybrid class
    -The coolest animations in Trove yet!
    -PUNCH PUNCH PUNCHPUNCHPUNCHPUNCHPU--
    -DAB

    Regardless of the gripes I have with it right now, this is a very hype class. Seriously, unbelievable work so far you guys; it's clear how much effort, energy, and love was put into the idea of this class. The animations (except the normal ranged firing animation) really do it for this class, and wailing on someone with high attack speed punches feels incredible.



    What Could be Better

    Summary:
    -This class lacks a definitive ultimate
    -The long cooldowns of this class shoot its potential fluidity in the foot.
    -This class lacks fluidity/mobility and could be refined to be so much smoother and faster paced.
    -Point 1 and 2 exponentially exacerbate point 3.

    Before I start, if the reason why VanG lacks mobility skills is for "difficulty" let me personally say I think your costing potential fun for that, which should never be the case.

    This class's mobility, for a (lone) damage dealer is highly lacking. It is not Shadow Hunter, as it is not reserved to the backline. It is not Dracolyte/Chloro/Rev, as it is not supposed to tank hits and/or summon. It is not Tomb Raiser/Pirate, as it is not supposed to ghost through hits and let others work for it. This class is lone DPS, and lacks the mobility that other classes of this type have without the utility to make up for it.

    I don't care if I have stats that let me live through everything, regardless; the important thing is the perceived feel of the gameplay.


    Melee mode VanG has a skill that increases its movement speed, but despite this-- despite the numbers increasing--I do not feel quite as fast as I should, like most of my melee counterparts. I do not FEEL as wild as a super hero punching his way to victory SHOULD. The other melee classes have skills that give them bursts of mobility on top of their damage as to keep them safe, but Vanguard can only walk faster in combat.

    Ranged mode VanG has a skill that increases its attack speed, but I AM NOT AS SAFE as my Gunslinger counterpart, as I do not have a skill that lets me jump out of harm's way. I do not have a way to stun enemies. I do not have any utility aside from being able to shoot and shoot faster. Mechanically, this by itself is shallow, especially considering another class literally does this.

    When put together with its other mode, it feels slightly better, but the cooldowns make tactical swapping far too clunky. Out of all of the classes in this game Vanguardian, by mechanical design deserves a low cooldown ultimate. It does not have access to a traditional nuke skill. Swapping, unlike traditional ultimates, does not offer good reason other than "every ult is like that" to have as long of a CD as it does. It needs to be reduced like the plague, because when you're brawling someone, every second matters.

    There is too much "empty time" spent auto-attacking due to both swapping taking too long to cool down, and each individual mode offering little to no utility by itself to diversify gameplay.

    By giving this class two states and not fully capitalizing on both of them, its problems echo much louder than a fully fledged traditional class. There is no "in between" for a hybrid; the whole thing has to flow.


    Classes with mobility skills
    Neon Ninja: Stasis Blade and Shadow Flip
    Gunslinger: Super Jump
    Candy Barbarian: Sugar Crash
    Knight: Charge
    Fae Trickster: Blink
    Lancer: Grapple
    Dino Tamer: A literal T-Rex.

    Classes without mobility skills and why
    Boomeranger: The entire class is utility, for better or worse.
    Tomb Raiser: MINIONS!
    Pirate Captain: CANNONS!
    Draco: God of sustained AoE damage + an offtank.
    Chloromancer: Is a support (technically)
    Revenant: Why does a wall need to move
    Vanguardian: "lol just dab bro"



    What I personally suggest

    Mechanical Change Ideas

    Enable us to chain moves into Dabsh/Each other
    (I'm unironically calling it the Dabsh)
    >>This change alone would actually render most of the next unnecessary. Basically, let us be able to do cancel out the animation of our Dabsh into a move, before the entire dab finishes. What this means is that while Dabsh-ing, we'll be able to perform any move while its momentum is still carrying us. This is an advanced technique found in other games (especially fighters), and I feel like it would REALLY give this class the "expert" tag it deserves. Imagine being able to dab, turn around, then Eye beam them before they can actually react to you.


    Add a forward-leaping AoE leaping punch to Force Flash before starting its effect (possibly getting rid of the former damage effect in the process)

    >>Seriously, Vanguardian's punch mode has the least range in the game and you don't give it any gap closing skills? Before you tell me about Force Flash's effect, let me ask you what kind of super hero walks on the battlefield? The way Touchdown works feels too slow (and flight is hard to handle in close proximity) to replace what I'm talking about.

    Add a Backstep to Plasma Blast
    >>Again, Ranged mode has no way of saving itself outside of swapping modes, and swapping modes has far too high of a cooldown to be tactical. I'm frequently stuck waiting for the CD with no escape moves aside from Dabsh (yes I'm calling the dodge that).

    Change the animation of Ranged Vanguard's M1 motion
    >>It's literally Gunslinger's animation right now. I feel it could be changed to VanG punching out the shockwaves instead.


    Skill Number Change Ideas


    Reduce cooldown of swapping skill.
    >>Again, it does not need to be that high for a class that literally lacks an actual ultimate. It feels too clunky for comfort. This is low-key a skill that does not require a cooldown at all as it offers no DPS advantage; you are literally just accessing more of your basic skills.

    Reduce Cooldoown (and likely power) of Ranged Buff Skill, but increasing its usability
    >>It feels like a cut-paste of Gunslinger's Ultimate at the moment. The only class that should have Gunslinger's ultimate is Gunslinger, don't you think? Ranged VanG is clunky in the sense that the vast majority of its kit takes half a minute to become reusable.

    Reduce time it takes for Touchdown to begin
    >>It takes like a good 2-3 seconds to be able to take advantage of VanG's passive in a practical situation, making this skill not worth using outside of initiating combat. I'm fine with that, but being able to leap out of a moderate-sized tree and charge straight into the ground would be even more fun.



    Conclusion
    This class is definitely an awesome premise and I love it and am all for it, however it's definitely clear that it has so much more potential to be both fundamentally a more advanced, and a more fun class, before even taking balancing into consideration.

    If you've read through all of this then I greatly appreciate it, and I hope my ideas have some merit!

  2. #2
    i really agree with your points here. i really like the concept i know it could really be good but right now it lacks an incentive to change modes in mid-battle too. i feel like if they put vanguard on live as it is right now it will be only used on ranged mode (while i think it should work like a combo machine that incentives players to change between positions for a better dps)

    i would also say that makes no sense for melee being a suportive one and ranged a dps. that should be swaped since we already got a lot of ranged dps and melee support

  3. #3
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    also the fact that its current subclass is a 3rd class 2 give us MORE JUMP Why trion why can't its subclass give energy regen?? its like the 1 of few stats no other subclass does.....

  4. #4
    Senior Member Tortorion's Avatar
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    For sure:

    - Energy cost of [M2] skill while in melee mode is too big.
    - We don't need knockback in this game, it's not usefull in group fight and non-boss fight.


    Personally, I would leave the Vanguardian as it is but only with small changes.

    Vanguardian is the first class that uses Claws as a weapon. This means that in the future (MAYBE 1 class per 1 season: Spring-Summer-Autumn-Winter) we will receive more classes that will also use Claws. I'm guessing that one of the classes will be devoted mainly to Martial Arts and then the words written by @CryoGX would be very helpful in its creation. Using a combination of [SHIFT] + [M1] / [M2] / [1] and [2] that would change all of the skills to other together with more damage is really good.

    Vanguardian is a mix of melee & ranged class, The farm will usually be used in Melee mode, and the Shadow Tower in Ranged mode, except that Melee mode is not as strong (Multi-target DPS) as Ranged (Single-target DPS) mode.

    Personally, I would slightly increase the damage [M1] for Melee mode, I would add more base Movement Speed ​​(like in Lunar Lancer) and edited / changed class gem by [M2]. The laser in the eyes + his passive ability as in flight (crash with AoE damage with a large range). Why? In dungeons there is no place for a flight, which will charge the passive, even if we charge it, we will usually hit Cursed Skull, which will spawn the mobs without hurting them.

    Ranged mode? Eh... Animations look very much like Gunslinger's. Vanguardian is a superhero! Do you know what would make him more cool? Shooting and using skills when using the wings! What's more, re-use [Space Bar] would not make his wings disappear.

    Yes, very similar to Gunslinger but welp, as a distance class, he need something that will take over his aggro. Equally good at a low HP (passive with a cooldown) can spawn 2 of his dabbing clones that have AoE, 1 sec stun and which will allow him to increase the distance.

  5. #5
    Senior Member See's Avatar
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    Pretty fun but knock back needs to be fixed and removed or turned into only a small knockup like said on stream. Also he needs about a 4x buff to be considered equal to GS, right now hes hardly better than the joke of a class, the SH

  6. #6
    Member Halcy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by See View Post
    Pretty fun but knock back needs to be fixed and removed or turned into only a small knockup like said on stream. Also he needs about a 4x buff to be considered equal to GS, right now hes hardly better than the joke of a class, the SH
    True. /10chars
    IGN Halcy Proud Laezarian Mastery 585

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    any points on to its passive? i find the passive really pointless or im doing it wrong that it only activates about 2/2.5sec? into gliding mode,was expecting it to be right away or earlier timing atleast 1sec in. its cool that you can destroy blocks only when you land but sadly not when you crash straight into a wall.
    Also it only applies to wings gliding and not flying mount which means if you to have fun with its passive you will need to forsake flying mounts.
    Another note i saw is a vfx when im riding land mount no idea what that is all about maybe cause im using knight subclass on.

    mechanics of vanguard seem sortof lackluster
    1) its melee skills, the eye laser would be good if it can be aimed at allowing shooting up/down direction instead of straight forward. there are some classes have similar attacks like draco normal attack which means players couldnt hit targets higher or lower or do stuffs like jumping and hitting down. maybe its the design of the skill but would be good if its changed into a projectile to allow more control.
    its 2nd skill aoe pulse is alright not so great nor bad just fine not much to comment on that.

    2)As for its range mode skills, im not sure is it lag or just bad detection or the hitbox is just small or some odd reasons the animation doesnt seem smooth. i had issues where the blast shot doesnt appear when used yet it still used up my energy so im probably thinking its sort of animation issue kinda similar to lunar lancer spear swinging skill where you cannot do auto attack inbetween as it will cancel off the animation thus skills not cast properly though energy is being consumed.
    i was expecting something like gunslinger charged shot where u can fire off the charged shot while still holding down auto fire and it will still have a smooth cast animation but what i had experienced so far from vanguard range mode for the blast shot skill is either the blast shot projectile didnt shoot off.

    Overall the new class vanguard need quite alot of tweaks to make it more fine tuned smooth in terms of its mechanics. stuffs like i mentioned the rest would be minor like its skills energy cost and ultimate skill cooldown being too long and have a more significant effect. cause to be honest the transition in ultimate skills is not impactful like being able to just do a forward / backward movement and knocking mobs back...

    one good point about this new class is the double set of skills due from its ultimate and the hybrid playstyle it gives. its same to league of legend introduce the champion: jayce with its 2 set of skills transition. hope to see more future class or maybe and upgrade for all class to go seperate paths into having more diversed playstyle but i guess thats for another topic.

    edit: erm what is this class gem ? as i didnt get that far into it so maybe someone could list it out? hopefully it would improve its overall skills.

  8. #8
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    For everyone information, Vanguardian's class gem is reducing slightly all of his abilities' cooldown whenever you land the final hit of his basic attack combo, 3 on melee (the uppercut) and probably 5 on range. From what I experience, you can reset all of your abilities quite quickly with a decent amount of AS (gears and subclasses).

    Though, I think the knock back from upper should be removed, it is not as bad as Knight's old M2, but still kind of annoying. A stun is probably a better replacement.

    His melee M2 (~33 energy per cast) should cost a bit less energy as it acts more like a debuff, not something he needs to spam. It also needs to have some sort of indication on mobs that is affected by the debuff.

    His range M2 (~33 energy per cast) should cost a lot less energy as it is his only AoE option in range mode and it is pretty slow.

  9. #9
    the aim at melee M2 its going to all the wrong places but not the expected one


    the 2 in both melee and ranged should go on the mouse direction and not to the space where the character its facing

    the 1 on ranged have his animation finishing before the buff end

    the class gem could reduce the cooldown in larger amounts but only work on the 2 so would make sense to change between stances in battle (and make the gameplay more fluid allowing the player to use it more often)

  10. #10
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    Since this class does not have an Ultimate, Why do we have the Ultimate cooldown? (Its on that button, it must have a cooldown?) I would remove the cooldown to make this class flow much better between the Melee fists, and then switching to ranged for shooting that mob that runs away, then switching back to melee.

    With the long cooldown time, the class feels too much like the GS. I.E. I'm just going to stay in Ranged mode since it takes too long to switch. If you want it to stand out, then the cooldown needs to be greatly reduced if not removed altogether.

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