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Thread: Xibit and Kalenyo's Theories on Tanking, Agro and Threat generation.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctech View Post
    Taunts are needed because other players can pull enemies from the tank by getting too close. After the first wave of enemies from cursed skulls, the enemies will initially attack a random player within range. Taunts help to deal with this situation.
    Just so we're clear, you understand that my claim is that DoTs loaded on a class give that class a passive taunt like ability, right? Ranged classes maybe less so, like I said in my OP. The whole discussion is me saying that when a character gets too close, they still will not take agro. Like a constant taunt. With DoTs, often times, when a mob ports away and DoTs are still in effect, instead of attacking the player he ported to, he runs back to me because I'm still hitting him (dots) despite the distance. The timing is partial luck since the dots don't last long and are passive procs.

    And nobody cares about cursed skulls. I just swirly through the entirety, allowing them to hit me, my spirit surge emp gem procs supplementing me with free heals during CB swirly with PS ally heals.

    -Xibit

  2. #22
    Senior Member Arctech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xibit View Post
    Welcome Back!

    DD is a heavily scripted fight as far as trove fights go. I suspect he resets agro after every jump or nuke.

    So in some of my testing, I went to the WP or SW bosses since they have simple scripting, less variables. With three melee standing on the mob, we could control whom had agro based on who was running the DoT gems/subclass. Nobody would step back during each test. All were over 20kPR. We also tested having the DoT geared melee walking up and engaging last. After about 10 seconds, the boss would change to that melee and stick like glue. We respawned and tested many scenarios with variations on sequence, gem dots only, subclass only, stuns (Knight) versus each variable with non knights. The common thread was agro within seconds goes to the sudo tank wearing the dot gear assuming the competing classes did not have a better combo of stuns/dots.

    There's the added benefit that with 3 dots, a CB is near invincible on DOTM coupled with the passive class heals and the prowling shadow ally.

    -Xibit
    Yes, I felt it was important to notify you of a correct way to disprove my statements since you had failed to do so. DD actually doesn't reset agro after jumps or nukes. When I am in pick-up groups, I will often see the tank move to the corner during a nuke, which might cause the boss to attack someone else if they are closer to the boss compared to the tank.

    I did a few more tests today with my 23826 pr lunar lancer using stinging curse and spirit surge. I had a 10k pr CB tank the boss without using any empowered/class gems. The CB never attacked, and I attacked the boss at max melee range. Despite activating the damage over time from stinging curse and spirit surge, I was unable to get the boss to attack me. Unsurprisingly, I conclude that DoTs have no effect on taunting the boss. I doubt the developers would go out of their way to implement a taunt function with gem abilities, then not indicate it on the gem description. Taunts on gem abilities would really mess up things for tanks if that were true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xibit View Post
    Just so we're clear, you understand that my claim is that DoTs loaded on a class give that class a passive taunt like ability, right? Ranged classes maybe less so, like I said in my OP. The whole discussion is me saying that when a character gets too close, they still will not take agro. Like a constant taunt. With DoTs, often times, when a mob ports away and DoTs are still in effect, instead of attacking the player he ported to, he runs back to me because I'm still hitting him (dots) despite the distance. The timing is partial luck since the dots don't last long and are passive procs.

    And nobody cares about cursed skulls. I just swirly through the entirety, allowing them to hit me, my spirit surge emp gem procs supplementing me with free heals during CB swirly with PS ally heals.

    -Xibit
    If you taunted an enemy right before it teleports, then it makes sense that the enemy will return to you. In most cases, I am attacked by a teleporting enemy before the tank can regain the enemy's attention.

    I think a lot of tanks care about cursed skulls because the enemies can target a random player and the tank benefits from being able to taunt the enemies away from other players. This is the most common situation I can think of where a tank benefits so much from taunting or pulling the enemies.

    Anyway, I think I made my point clear now. Even if you still disagree with me, it doesn't matter to me because I know I will never encounter a situation where I pull the boss off the tank by using stinging curse or spirit surge. Good luck overcoming your stubbornness.
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  3. #23
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    Alright, you're not even testing what I talked about nor are you giving any specifics of your testing that I previously asked for.

    Thanks for your input. Good luck with your closed mind and passive aggressive nature.

    I just watched DOTM run past 3 other closer ranged players straight at my Fae. Proximity theory busted.

    -Xibit

  4. #24
    Senior Member Chronozilla's Avatar
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    Only read OP, so this might have been said already: Trove does not have a threat level system past decoys made by skills, forced aggro sometimes redirects aggro when the taunting duration ends, and most mobs have a 3d aggro sphere they stick around, jump far enough above something and everything will gather exactly beneath you, even rangers.

    EDIT: dumb typos
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  5. #25
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    Chronozilla,

    Hello, thanks for your input. I think I understand what you're saying. I'm guessing thread=threat? forced aggro=taunt?

    Is the 3d agro sphere not absolute? I watched DOTM run away from a melee tank passing closely by 3 range players today to attack my FT. Do you believe that was an effect of an underlying script?

    This all came about because my CB character's ability to hold a ST bosses attention changed in a short period of time. First it was okay with occasional loss of agro, then it was terrible where the mob bounced between myself, my wife and my brothers characters endlessly, now it is excellent to the point that many people have said so after ST boss kills. I guess the overarching question is this... if 2 melee characters are an equal distance from an ST boss, lets say WP, neither are taunting, how is the mobs attention determined? Would it attack the melee that is doing the most damage, the melee that lands the most hits, the melee that lands the first hit, etc.?

    I too believe there is not an underlying threat system, per say. That being said, taunt has to have a working mathmatical mechanic. Maybe rev taunt counts as multiple hits and hits per second = more threat = mobs attention. There would be other variables such as the 3d agro sphere, which stabilizes agro to an extent. Rev's shield slam ability includes a DoT along with the taunt. Why? DoTs do tiny amounts of damage so it's only effective to generate hits for proc abilities such as PS ally.

    Are there any Dev posts or resources that explain these mechanics to any degree or are the players left making assumptions based on what we see in game? I've searched around but haven't found anything official.

    -Xibit

  6. #26
    Senior Member Chronozilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xibit View Post
    Is the 3d agro sphere not absolute? I watched DOTM run away from a melee tank passing closely by 3 range players today to attack my FT. Do you believe that was an effect of an underlying script?
    If a monster can't get to a player, they will eventually run to someone else, abuse of the 3 dimensional aggro works best if you're going in solo so they don't have the option of changing to other players.
    I'm not sure about the case you described, Titans are usually immune to decoys, but who really knows.
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  7. #27
    st bosses seem to have slightly different script than normal mobs or thats what i think since most stuffs is kinda hard to notice or test.

    my experience with dotm as SH main , only when im the one starting the cursed skull i could usually hold aggro until someone out dps me especially GS and afterawhile if the gs is too high up in the air then for whatever reasons dotm would change target again.

    As for dread boss if you notice how its aggro would reset to its nearest target whenever it does the jump to center attack regardless whoever is dealing more dps.

    in regard to your whole aggro mob threat lvl topic, its really hard or has much value to apply with trove's current game mechanics. it would be really useful if it works well on st boss but sadly it doesnt thus for the most part we are using skill ability classes like candy/rev to pull mobs/boss instead of proper aggro mechanics.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by phagy View Post
    in regard to your whole aggro mob threat lvl topic, its really hard or has much value to apply with trove's current game mechanics. it would be really useful if it works well on st boss but sadly it doesnt thus for the most part we are using skill ability classes like candy/rev to pull mobs/boss instead of proper aggro mechanics.
    Thanks for your input. As of yesterday's patch, the two classes with taunt abilities are Rev and now, Knight. I was talking about my CB because with the 2 empower gems with DoTs and the sh subclass with it's dot, I can hold the ST bosses attention extremely well. A noticeable difference with than without.

    -Xibit

    PS. Ah, you meant the swirly abilities of CB and Rev. Gotcha, ya. That's what I used to rely on to hold DOTM for example. Now, I just straight up beat on her and never lose agro.

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