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Thread: Xibit and Kalenyo's Theories on Tanking, Agro and Threat generation.

  1. #11
    Senior Member Arctech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xibit View Post
    You didn't answer most of the questioned I asked. Also, that doesn't take into account if the group has 2 or more melee characters. Who gets agro then? You think it's random? Have you tested it?

    Also, I mentioned in my OP that it's possible that SH (and others) might have a negative taunt effect or decreased agro natively. Your test have done nothing to disprove my theory.

    Xibit
    Yes, I've tested groups with melee dps. A long time ago, top 100 DotM used to be more diverse and balanced to where melee dps could get purple name. NN was viable for top 100, and I just had to make sure to not pull the boss off the tank by attacking at max melee distance. I also tested this with radiant giants, and I am unable to pull the enemy off someone who is closer to that enemy. I purposely didn't answer some of your questions. I don't want to spend any more time on this, so I will leave it to the readers to figure it out if they want. Someone else can prove or disprove, but I have other things to do.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirare View Post
    I am pretty sure it does, seeing as I can gain aggro much more consistently when using it (as a dracolyte) and often bosses seem to start targeting me instead of any other non-taunting melee players at random while I have it on (but conveniently keep poking the others when I don't, unless I claimed aggro at the start of the fight before they did).

    That, and I'm pretty sure the developers aren't so ignorant to the mechanics of their own game as to disable it in the one single place where it might be useful. Tell me, what reason would there be to claim aggro in other areas? Leechers that actually bother entering the boss room and attacking are incredibly rare; two properly-leveled players will kill any enemies in seconds; most people can kill the enemies in moments alone anyway. Shadow towers are the only place where aggro is even remotely relevant, and the developers almost certainly know that.

    I'm guessing you'll ask me to test that, though, which is a bit difficult seeing as practically nobody plays melee in UM shadow towers anyway unless they're a revenant/CB tank...
    Nope. Google it. I'm sure someone will link where the devs confirmed that it doesn't work on SH bosses. I think it works on the mobs leading up to the boss, but not the boss itself. If I find it, I'll link it later.

    (Post #12) https://steamcommunity.com/app/30405...5331483995309/

    Xibit

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctech View Post
    Yes, I've tested groups with melee dps. A long time ago, top 100 DotM used to be more diverse and balanced to where melee dps could get purple name. NN was viable for top 100, and I just had to make sure to not pull the boss off the tank by attacking at max melee distance. I also tested this with radiant giants, and I am unable to pull the enemy off someone who is closer to that enemy. I purposely didn't answer some of your questions. I don't want to spend any more time on this, so I will leave it to the readers to figure it out if they want. Someone else can prove or disprove, but I have other things to do.
    Alright, thanks for your input. Good hunting.

    Xibit

  4. #14
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    I tank DD a lot with my ice sage and I think the way it works is basically this: DD has a timer and when it resets, he checks for who is closest to him and aggros them (hitting him may help with this but I've never tried not hitting him). I lose aggro every now and then to PCs who seem to think their attack range is -50 (they are standing inside the middle part of the boss, I've played my PC against him and I know you can actually stand a little bit away from his legs and still hit him). I'm not sure how long the timer goes but it doesn't reset with the jump or nuke.. he will nuke and I get aggro back right away, it's probably around 15-20 seconds though. I'm usually the closest after the nuke anyway, but even when I'm not there's a period of time where he's still shooting me.

    NN backflip will clear yourself of aggro btw.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAndy View Post
    I tank DD a lot with my ice sage and I think the way it works is basically this: DD has a timer and when it resets, he checks for who is closest to him and aggros them (hitting him may help with this but I've never tried not hitting him). I lose aggro every now and then to PCs who seem to think their attack range is -50 (they are standing inside the middle part of the boss, I've played my PC against him and I know you can actually stand a little bit away from his legs and still hit him). I'm not sure how long the timer goes but it doesn't reset with the jump or nuke.. he will nuke and I get aggro back right away (I'm usually the closest after the nuke anyway), it's probably around 15-20 seconds though.

    NN backflip will clear yourself of aggro btw.
    Yes. I've seen the same on DD. I think that entire fight is an exception to most all prior rules. I've also noticed that after the tank closes the gap (stands under DD) after a nuke/jump, it'll deactivate his laser. I've seen him laser 1 or 2 times with fast tanks and 6 with slow ones, usually taking pots from DPS. Kalenyo has Fae tanked DD when the "tank" has died on several occations. Hydra is also a strange fight in regards to agro.

    -Xibit

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    Another comment to disprove the claim that proximity is all that's needed to hold agro is game features like the taunt as described on the revenant shield slam tooltip. If proximity was all that mattered, that ability would not be needed. The new taunt being introduced Tuesday for the Knight is another example.

    Again, DD is an exception.

    -Xibit

  7. #17
    Senior Member Arctech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xibit View Post
    Another comment to disprove the claim that proximity is all that's needed to hold agro is game features like the taunt as described on the revenant shield slam tooltip. If proximity was all that mattered, that ability would not be needed. The new taunt being introduced Tuesday for the Knight is another example.

    Again, DD is an exception.

    -Xibit
    Sorry but the comment doesn't disprove anything I've said. Give me reproducible steps on how to get the boss to attack me while the tank is closer. I still haven't encountered such a situation even though I've been playing since alpha. In my experience, DD is no exception.

    Taunts are needed because other players can pull enemies from the tank by getting too close. After the first wave of enemies from cursed skulls, the enemies will initially attack a random player within range. Taunts help to deal with this situation.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Spirare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xibit View Post
    Nope. Google it. I'm sure someone will link where the devs confirmed that it doesn't work on SH bosses. I think it works on the mobs leading up to the boss, but not the boss itself. If I find it, I'll link it later.

    (Post #12) https://steamcommunity.com/app/30405...5331483995309/

    Xibit
    I don't think that qualifies as developer confirmation.

    After looking through the forums briefly I didn't find any developer posts or mentions of it not working on ST bosses anywhere.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctech View Post
    Sorry but the comment doesn't disprove anything I've said. Give me reproducible steps on how to get the boss to attack me while the tank is closer. I still haven't encountered such a situation even though I've been playing since alpha. In my experience, DD is no exception.

    Taunts are needed because other players can pull enemies from the tank by getting too close. After the first wave of enemies from cursed skulls, the enemies will initially attack a random player within range. Taunts help to deal with this situation.
    Welcome Back!

    DD is a heavily scripted fight as far as trove fights go. I suspect he resets agro after every jump or nuke.

    So in some of my testing, I went to the WP or SW bosses since they have simple scripting, less variables. With three melee standing on the mob, we could control whom had agro based on who was running the DoT gems/subclass. Nobody would step back during each test. All were over 20kPR. We also tested having the DoT geared melee walking up and engaging last. After about 10 seconds, the boss would change to that melee and stick like glue. We respawned and tested many scenarios with variations on sequence, gem dots only, subclass only, stuns (Knight) versus each variable with non knights. The common thread was agro within seconds goes to the sudo tank wearing the dot gear assuming the competing classes did not have a better combo of stuns/dots.

    There's the added benefit that with 3 dots, a CB is near invincible on DOTM coupled with the passive class heals and the prowling shadow ally.

    -Xibit

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirare View Post
    I don't think that qualifies as developer confirmation.

    After looking through the forums briefly I didn't find any developer posts or mentions of it not working on ST bosses anywhere.
    Agreed. I was planning on adding more links as I find them.

    -Xibit

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