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Thread: Could health regen on gems be replaced with a new stat?

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    Member TheRallykiller's Avatar
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    Could health regen on gems be replaced with a new stat?

    I know there are discussions and ongoing dev tests to explore possible changes and alternatives to HR on gems. I have a proposal that could overlap with Avarem's statement in his letter about new subclassing options.

    What if HR was replaced by a stat called "Passive +?" Every class has a passive ability, but not all of them are created equal. What if at Level 20 (or 30), classes have the ability to awaken an improved version of their passive?

    Dracolytes could have a small DoT effect applied to all their attacks based on a flat damage value. Sages could project an aura that occasionally freezes enemies within a radius. These aren't set-in-stone ideas, but I think evolutions of the concepts of class passives could make more classes end-game appealing beyond the acquisition of Godroll gems.

    Also, the potency of Passive + could stack, but still be limited to prevent egregious passive imbalance.

    If subclassing is implemented to whatever degree, this could further differentiate classes based on a player's # of gems with Passive +.

    Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRallykiller View Post
    I know there are discussions and ongoing dev tests to explore possible changes and alternatives to HR on gems. I have a proposal that could overlap with Avarem's statement in his letter about new subclassing options.

    What if HR was replaced by a stat called "Passive +?" Every class has a passive ability, but not all of them are created equal. What if at Level 20 (or 30), classes have the ability to awaken an improved version of their passive?

    Dracolytes could have a small DoT effect applied to all their attacks based on a flat damage value. Sages could project an aura that occasionally freezes enemies within a radius. These aren't set-in-stone ideas, but I think evolutions of the concepts of class passives could make more classes end-game appealing beyond the acquisition of Godroll gems.
    I think this is a GREAT alternative to Health Regen. While they have said that they're working on making Health Regen better and more useful, I simply do not see it as a stat I need for any reason. I primarily play a Dracolyte myself, and while a DoT is awesome enough for me to be interested, pretty much any alternative to Health Regen would interest me - even an improved Health Regen will not do me justice, since I run with Prowling Shadow. If I didn't use Prowling Shadow, and instead used, say, Chronomancer, perhaps I would have a different opinion, but seeing as I don't have Chronomancer, the point is kinda moot.

    That being said, Cooldown Reduction wouldn't be a horrible stat either, especially given the number of magic DPS characters... The only thing would be that PvP would seriously need some balancing, more so than it already does, because physical characters would have a disadvantage, but it would also push them to focus attack speed and movement speed, so I think it could be balanced.

    Also, the potency of Passive + could stack, but still be limited to prevent egregious passive imbalance.
    What you've described is the idea of diminishing returns - frequently used in stacking stats in other MMO's, and very effective to prevent complete stacking of stats that are especially useful, particularily with Crit or high damage stats of the like.

    If subclassing is implemented to whatever degree, this could further differentiate classes based on a player's # of gems with Passive +.

    Just a thought.
    This would be very interesting, because assuming it would work like a traditional multiclass from DnD, you would base your character on a class and upgrade it with aspects of another class; this would make your entire build not simply reliant on your gems, but also your ability synergy between two classes. This would be phenomenal if you did actually have a passive upgrade of sorts, because it would change the way the classes could synergize.

    Consider, perhaps, how a Dracolyte and a Chloromancer can synergize (an example I use simply because I play those characters most); a chloromancer is capable of healing Dracolyte minions, which in turn will increase the Dracolyte's damage, and the Dracolyte's minions will certainly help to protect the Chloromancer from harm. But the Dracolyte's passive reduces damage from lava, as well as increasing the player's speed, while a Chloromancer's passive gives them a 30% shield when they reach half health. There's a considerable difference in the usefulness of these passives, let's be honest. While walking on lava is fun, when I already have a considerable amount of health, it's sort of unnecessary. But if, say, perhaps the character could be a Chloromancer, with multiclassing traits of a Dracolyte? What if the Chloro could not just use but make use of the Draco's class gem? Or even simpler, if you could change passives (although I think everybody would lean towards the same passives...). Very different gameplay already, though, and that's one combination out of the 14 classes to choose from.

    All around a very good suggestion, in my opinion.

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    Senior Member KoBeWi's Avatar
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    Why is this in off topic tho?
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    Health Regen is a pretty good stat (depending on the player), it cuts down on flask usage and if stacked high enough can even heal through Dark Spore Hurler gas, etc.

    If something was added that was an alternative that would be fine but wouldn't like to see HR go as it would force more flask usage (finding a cornerstone, refilling, etc.). HR may not be in the "top rated" character builds though that doesn't mean scrap it altogether

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    Senior Member DaRkD0M1NaNt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriNitY706 View Post
    Health Regen is a pretty good stat (depending on the player), it cuts down on flask usage and if stacked high enough can even heal through Dark Spore Hurler gas, etc.

    If something was added that was an alternative that would be fine but wouldn't like to see HR go as it would force more flask usage (finding a cornerstone, refilling, etc.). HR may not be in the "top rated" character builds though that doesn't mean scrap it altogether
    Since when does it cut down on flask usage? Health Regen can't even catch up with the amount of damage higher tier enemies deal to you.

    Besides that, there is no point in investing in Health Regeneration for sustainability currently because you can build up on damage on most classes to end a battle quickly.
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    @DaRkD0M1NaNt Do you even stack HR?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaRkD0M1NaNt View Post
    Since when does it cut down on flask usage?
    It cuts down on flask usage because it restores health without using a flask. Players can receive considerable amounts of health back from HR (depending on how much is stacked) so flasks wouldn't always need to be used to restore health which can and does cut down on flask usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaRkD0M1NaNt View Post
    Health Regen can't even catch up with the amount of damage higher tier enemies deal to you.
    If HR could do that players would essentially become invincible, where's the challenge/fun overall in that?

    You do know how HR works right, continuing to receive damage negates HR's effect, meaning standing near enemies that are dealing damage will reduce what HR can do and since so many builds don't include HR players might as well stay in the fight and "tombstone" since stepping away from the fight won't do much for them...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaRkD0M1NaNt View Post
    Besides that, there is no point in investing in Health Regeneration for sustainability currently because you can build up on damage on most classes to end a battle quickly.
    And when that built up damage fails to end a battle quickly, then what? Tombstone...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriNitY706 View Post
    Health Regen is a pretty good stat (depending on the player), it cuts down on flask usage and if stacked high enough can even heal through Dark Spore Hurler gas, etc.

    If something was added that was an alternative that would be fine but wouldn't like to see HR go as it would force more flask usage (finding a cornerstone, refilling, etc.). HR may not be in the "top rated" character builds though that doesn't mean scrap it altogether
    The primary issue with Health Regen as it stands, though, is there's always something better; a damage class can use those extra stat slots for damage instead, and then they can eliminate enemies before they're a problem, instead of taking forever to fight them and regen, and honestly, it's kinda fun blowing dudes up. A tank class could stack straight health, or run with Prowling Shadow or Prefect Penguin/Raptor Berserker and more damage. Both allies heal for considerably more, considerably faster, and during combat - and honestly, you can buy a Prowling Shadow with glim, and a Prefect Penguin (or Raptor Berserker, I believe is the Physical equivalent), which I just picked up the other day, isn't all that expensive for much of a bonus it is for your damage, too.

    But, while I usually run with glass cannon DPS in U9, I can say there's a lot of stopping for cornerstones anyway because they use the buff off their flask for burst, which they really don't have to. This could probably equate to using them for health if you needed to, and I've never had to worry. It's a quick stop and then you're gone again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaRkD0M1NaNt View Post
    Since when does it cut down on flask usage? Health Regen can't even catch up with the amount of damage higher tier enemies deal to you.

    Besides that, there is no point in investing in Health Regeneration for sustainability currently because you can build up on damage on most classes to end a battle quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by TriNitY706 View Post
    If HR could do that players would essentially become invincible, where's the challenge/fun overall in that?
    While I realize a Prowling Shadow is more beneficial to certain classes than others, I loved using it for a long time simply for this purpose. It allowed me to solo things above my level and actually play with my friends. Being a builder, I was slow to the PR party. And, overall, I've always enjoyed being able to tank big hits for my friends. It helps me do just that, and definitely cuts down on flask use, significantly. If you don't want to play with it, then don't, but I like having the option - and I've always groaned at HR since I realized how little it helps me in comparison.

    I've heard the same reviews across the board from Chloromancers, Neon Ninjas, Gunslingers, Shadow Hunters, Boomerangers, Revenants, and Candy Barbs, and I play a Draco. Perhaps it's a playstyle preference and not a class-related or role-related issue, but I certainly don't feel with that many negative reviews it should get by without at least a rework. Health Regen may have its uses in solo-play, but in a group oriented game - and frankly, a stat that can be worked around without, unlike any other - it just doesn't fit right. Lifesteal, Cooldown Reduction, or a stronger Health Regen, are all good offers based off of what people are looking for when they play. It doesn't have to be game-breaking, or perhaps it could even be capped/have diminishing returns as well. I wouldn't mind that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriNitY706 View Post
    @DaRkD0M1NaNtAnd when that built up damage fails to end a battle quickly, then what? Tombstone...
    I wanted to address this point separately from my other post, so here you go.

    This is the standard of glass-cannon-DPS. Most Gunslingers and Shadow Hunters adopt this method early on, but essentially it goes like this:

    PH/MD > Crit DMG/Hit > anything else, including health.

    I know a 15k Gunslinger who is under 200k HP. He dies very easily, as only a breath of wind will knock him over, but he also is prepared enough to play with Death Defying Vial, and he does an unreal amount of damage. Whether he uses his flasks for damage or health, he stops for flasks about every 10 dungeons or so, but he is VERY efficient, and honestly, very hard to keep up with in dungeons! Anybody who runs with him knows to pretty much follow him, keep up, and collect loot. That's it. We rarely get shots in edgewise, and frankly, sometimes I don't have time to stop at his cornerstone when he does, either.

    Aside from U9 worlds, the other main concern will be Ultra runs. Pick-up groups/randoms are hard to manage, because you don't know who or what you've really got. Some people lie about their PR because they need the rewards, some people get carried. It happens. But, ideally, this should not pose a problem. Most groups understand that you at least need a tank; ours has two tanks and a healer. Though we don't always get to run that setup together because our group is larger than 8 people, we avidly protect our DPS. I will literally - and gladly - put my face in the way for any squishy DPS, especially in Ultra.

    I mentioned Prowling Shadow and Prefect Penguin/Raptor Berserker before (although now I'm going to omit the last one because I'm MD myself). I ran for most of my time playing with Prowling Shadow, because it kept me alive very well, and I never really had to worry about dying, even fresh into U9. Alone, I still struggled, but because I didn't have any damage. That is no longer the case, and I switched to Prefect Penguin for everything except Ultra, and I still don't use any flasks - and killing stuff is remarkably faster all around. Win-win.

    For those not familiar - Prowling Shadow heals 2% HP on hit. At 1mil HP, give or take 100k on any given day, it heals for a pretty good amount. The reason it works better than Health Regen is simply because it is constant, and it is not proc'd only by your main attack. As a Draco, my bombs, my minions, and my main ability - which hits in AoE - proc it, but it also works in my ult form (healing + damage reduction = happy tank), and I use Pyrodisc, which also procs it, but so will Stinging Curse, which happens to be a leftover gem I'm trying to replace. As a tank, AoE damage taken therefore becomes nonexistant.

    If I were to opt into HR, I would have to duck and dodge, which is fine, I don't mind that, but I would also have to avoid damage to heal, and I can't afford that in an Ultra run when I'm trying to protect squishies. The only situation it would work would be if my minions could tank for me long enough for me to get away - which has been required in my early days - but if I can't refresh/add new minions while dodging combat (those who don't play Draco, bombs need to be hit multiple times to explode them to spawn a minion; as per our class gem), then they need to be healed to keep tanking or they'll die and I'll lose aggro, in which case I'm going to be close enough to be healed, henceforth HR still isn't helping me.

    Prefect Penguin, on the other hand, gives you bonus damage and a 15% heal on kill. In most farming and AoE situations, or even Hard ST, I find this is sufficient. I kill things fast enough with the boost to benefit from the heal before I need a flask. This is what I aim for; having enough HP to survive, and enough damage to suffice between, so I can still solo without struggling to do damage, but I also don't die on harder bosses. Again, this works in combat, where HR doesn't. While this method does not yet work for Ultra because of the large health pools on the bosses, Prowling Shadow has never let me down.

    Now, the reason I'm giving you a huge block of text to read and explaining this all in awful detail, is so you understand this point clearly - HR is not as effective as it could be. Does it have its uses? Probably. But, I have gone out of my way to suffice without it because there are better options, and I hope my explanation tells you how these options have worked better. I would rather use the stats towards damage or health as I need to, to be more effective, and help my group.

    I am not against HR if they updated it to be more effective. I am not against the introduction of a separate new stat. I am not against replacing HR. I support an effective way to survive and kill things, with a group or solo, which is a primary concern in high-level play. HR does not provide that for me, at all.

    And we have certainly never died from killing things too quickly.

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    @Desultory

    A rework of HR is fine, changing it to something else is not.

    The purpose of the posts from this end for the most part are arguing against replacing a stat a number of players utilize with something else that will remove it from their utilization and be detrimental to their builds since they stack HR for a reason(s).

    Also the posts from this end are not trying to discuss what some think/feel are better alternatives to HR because frankly, what others negatively think/feel about HR and its viability/use is supposed to mean what to a player that utilizes it? (rhetorical)

    What works for some does not work for all/majority which is what a suggestion such as this inherently aims to do without allowing those that utilize HR the ability for it to continue to work for them (also without the possibility of its use being reinforced by a buff) while those who want something different being able to utilize whatever that is as well.

    Prowling Shadow/Rapt Berserker/Prefect Penguin and HR together provide that much more health regeneration and some players go for that and have the right to do so just like players who prefer to be glass cannons, etc. You as well as others are seemingly looking at things from your own perspectives and gauging the viability of HR based on that and or comparing HR to what you all think would be more viable overall, solely looking at things in those ways are inconsiderate of those that think, feel and operate otherwise.

    HR may not be effective to all but it is effective to a number of players at least even in its current state and those players should be able to rely on it as they have with the possibility of a buff instead of having the rug pulled out from under them and being forced out of their builds.

    Not everyone runs around in groups, some like to solo from time to time, some even like to solo higher Ubers so HR can/is important to those players.

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    Senior Member DaRkD0M1NaNt's Avatar
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    "A number of players"
    I would like to know more about these other players and how they can deal with damage dealt to them by monsters that consume 80% of their health at once with HR.

    No, HR isn't important to those who solo higher ubers because we would be better off killing dungeon bosses in seconds with a damage build rather than just prancing around with a durability build and needing up to an extra 20 seconds to clear a dungeon.
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