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Moonbeam715
05-24-2018, 09:59 AM
I know that adding new content is not easy and it is very possible that all bugs have not been fixed or even found yet, but I just wanted to thank you for listening and watching our feedback. No game update is perfect even on launch day but I am looking forward to this update. ;):cool:

INN3R_C4L4M1TY
05-25-2018, 01:10 AM
I'd like to say the same thing. It's clear that a lot of work has gone into this update. I just want you to know that the extra effort put in to make an update that isn't just another flux sink, but a whole new way to play the game is really appreciated.

fruitie
05-25-2018, 01:51 AM
I wish I could get appreciated like this for under-delivering. 2 years since u9 and the same network issues. You're entitled to your opinion, but the game as a whole has less variance than probably any other MMO. To me, while stuff like the jetpack is cool, 3 worlds of the same lasermancy stuff isn't exactly groundbreaking. In fact, it seems like a reversion. If we compare the time before the last patch then sure, they've worked on a number of new things in a not too long time, but in the grand scheme of things, quests are more of a loading screen simulator than other MMOs, combat is simplistic with little variance while shadow towers rely on death defying and stuff like darknik dreadnought doesn't have clear tells on its laser attack (which isn't noticeable if you have someone tanking and doing all of the hard work), the game still crashes, there's rubberbanding, ultimates are still bugged, ping is much higher than it should be, there's so many mounts, and they all function the same. For a game designed on creativity, there seems to be quite a lack of creativity...

I can see myself doing a fair share of bomber royale presuming others are willing to enter, but I'll probably hate myself because network issues affect pvp even more. It also tries to capitalise on the battle royale hype while using many existing assets and the only form of attack is using bombs. So while there's some stuff that is nice, for example the extra storage available is a nice gesture that will particularly help me since I store a whole bunch of spare empowered and lesser gems for if I want to upgrade my other characters, on the whole they will get my thanks when they improve the quality to what should be a minimum standard.

I mean compare this from a game I've long since abandoned:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-3r-5UqcNbU/maxresdefault.jpg

to this:
https://webcdn.triongames.com/trove/img/ShadowHydrakken.gif

There is one thing I feel a tiny bit bad about from that other game. I let peoples anger towards that game get to me, when really while there were legitimate things to criticise there, there was also a lot of nitpicking. People complained about lag in some areas over there, but it just doesn't compare to lag in trove.

INN3R_C4L4M1TY
05-25-2018, 03:55 AM
Neverwinter is Neverwinter and Trove is Trove. One's a D&D MMORPG with a high emphasis on combat and story, making you the hero in a world where everything is already heavily written and all you do is ask NPCs for quests and do what they say. The other isn't a part of an existing, highly successful universe, focuses more on other stuff you can do in addition to combat, such as building, and has a story that doesn't get in your way. Besides, there is absolutely no way the two games were made on a similar budget and with a team of similar size. The two cannot really be compared.

Every MMORPG is different, so when a new update comes out, the best thing to do when judging it is to compare it to other updates in the same game. So, apples to apples. When's the last time an update in Trove added a new minigame/pvp thing, a whole new mode, a new branch of mastery, a new profession, a new type of thing to use in clubs(it's just particle effects, but that's still something, especially to someone who likes building in this game as much as I do), a new equipment system, a bunch of new resources, and actual buildup? Buildup! This game's never had this kind of buildup to a larger threat!

The most exciting part of this update isn't what's in it, but what it promises for the future of Trove. After years of same old, same old, the devs have decided to step up their game. I'll be honest. I was starting to get a little burned out on Trove. However, after seeing a huge update with plenty of new things that would be enough to keep the game fresh for a while on their own dedicated solely to building up a conflict on the surface of a whole new world, where a big bad who has only ever been mentioned in lore up to this point is actually introduced as a direct threat, I don't think I'm going to be leaving this game any time soon.

This update has its flaws, some of them pretty big, and you're also entitled to your opinion, but Geode has made me optimistic and genuinely hyped and excited for something in Trove. I didn't even think that was possible at this point and I want to thank the devs for making it happen.

fruitie
05-25-2018, 04:42 AM
Neverwinter is Neverwinter and Trove is Trove. One's a D&D MMORPG with a high emphasis on combat and story, making you the hero in a world where everything is already heavily written and all you do is ask NPCs for quests and do what they say. The other isn't a part of an existing, highly successful universe, focuses more on other stuff you can do in addition to combat, such as building, and has a story that doesn't get in your way. Besides, there is absolutely no way the two games were made on a similar budget and with a team of similar size. The two cannot really be compared.

Every MMORPG is different, so when a new update comes out, the best thing to do when judging it is to compare it to other updates in the same game. So, apples to apples. When's the last time an update in Trove added a new minigame/pvp thing, a whole new mode, a new branch of mastery, a new profession, a new type of thing to use in clubs(it's just particle effects, but that's still something, especially to someone who likes building in this game as much as I do), a new equipment system, a bunch of new resources, and actual buildup? Buildup! This game's never had this kind of buildup to a larger threat!

The most exciting part of this update isn't what's in it, but what it promises for the future of Trove. After years of same old, same old, the devs have decided to step up their game. I'll be honest. I was starting to get a little burned out on Trove. However, after seeing a huge update with plenty of new things that would be enough to keep the game fresh for a while on their own dedicated solely to building up a conflict on the surface of a whole new world, where a big bad who has only ever been mentioned in lore up to this point is actually introduced as a direct threat, I don't think I'm going to be leaving this game any time soon.

This update has its flaws, some of them pretty big, and you're also entitled to your opinion, but Geode has made me optimistic and genuinely hyped and excited for something in Trove. I didn't even think that was possible at this point and I want to thank the devs for making it happen.

Having a smaller team (though they have stated they have hired many more people) is certainly a factor, however it doesn't necessarily mean your product has to suffer. Things like minecraft and terraria weren't massive games, but still were delivered really well. Trove's combat style is somewhat similar to Neverwinter which I find to be an engaging style that some other games have done less well in, but trove is also too simplistic in ai with little variance. People asked for lore a while back, and what we got were these events that just don't compare. As a building game, the features also lack. I'm not a builder, but terraformers ruin creations unless you plan carefully, placing blocks can be finicky, there's not many tools for building, there's not many tools for block destruction. Granted that there's now a new mount to place blocks which seems to be a big help. It's not like I solely compare it to other games, I compare it within itself too. We used to get weekly updates, and they literally told us that they were slowing down updates to increase the quality of updates. What actually happened is that they took those resources to work on console. They constantly told us that they are working on fixing those issues, but they still persist. It's not like they're nitpicky issues.

I find myself to be a pretty balanced person, a simple game design doesn't necessarily have to be a con regard, but added to an increased grind which highlights it and the low game performance and stability, then yes I think they do deserve criticism and scepticism instead of praise. As for what they added, a new pvp mode (though they did change pvp to deathmatch and it was still dead), like I say they reused assets so it's less original. We have bombs as the sole form of attack, a gunslinger jump, boomeranger bomb, and lunar lancer spear, along with the health pick up. I will still probably play it, but I did expect more, and lag will have a huge negative impact. The whole new mode is basically setting you to level 0 and using your mining laser, it being split into 3 worlds doesn't really make it more varied. The new profession... eh it's something to work on. The new mastery is interesting though, after all it's hard for every game to have everything lack.

As a long time player, I no longer hold onto "promises for the future" but evaluate as it comes. If they deliver for the future, brilliant! That's what we all want. But in order to get there, I think it's important to iterate that we want more instead of giving the impression that the in game flaws are meaningless. We've had so many promises in the past, plasma fishing didn't come for so long, ring forging literally never came, heck we haven't even heard about the yabaki contest that finished the start of the year. I will evaluate content as it comes. There were things in the past that I didn't care so much about for example sky realm felt so empty, but I had no issue with others sharing hype because the game was still in beta and showed potential. Time has elapsed now, and quality wise it still feels like a beta product. In fact, apart from server downtimes, performance itself was actually solid from my experience.

tl;dr: I want trove to be a game the devs can be proud of delivering something genuinely good instead of getting a participation trophy. I admit, I've cared too much for Trove and should have let go, but I'm a little stubborn about moving on. Habit and unmotivation are strong forces :c

I'm glad we can manage to have different opinions without taking it as a personal attack. That is also something I think the general population needs to work upon. I know that some people don't tend to like what I say, even if I do have best interests at heart.

INN3R_C4L4M1TY
05-26-2018, 06:02 AM
Having a smaller team (though they have stated they have hired many more people) is certainly a factor, however it doesn't necessarily mean your product has to suffer. Things like minecraft and terraria weren't massive games, but still were delivered really well. Trove's combat style is somewhat similar to Neverwinter which I find to be an engaging style that some other games have done less well in, but trove is also too simplistic in ai with little variance. People asked for lore a while back, and what we got were these events that just don't compare. As a building game, the features also lack. I'm not a builder, but terraformers ruin creations unless you plan carefully, placing blocks can be finicky, there's not many tools for building, there's not many tools for block destruction. Granted that there's now a new mount to place blocks which seems to be a big help. It's not like I solely compare it to other games, I compare it within itself too. We used to get weekly updates, and they literally told us that they were slowing down updates to increase the quality of updates. What actually happened is that they took those resources to work on console. They constantly told us that they are working on fixing those issues, but they still persist. It's not like they're nitpicky issues.

I find myself to be a pretty balanced person, a simple game design doesn't necessarily have to be a con regard, but added to an increased grind which highlights it and the low game performance and stability, then yes I think they do deserve criticism and scepticism instead of praise. As for what they added, a new pvp mode (though they did change pvp to deathmatch and it was still dead), like I say they reused assets so it's less original. We have bombs as the sole form of attack, a gunslinger jump, boomeranger bomb, and lunar lancer spear, along with the health pick up. I will still probably play it, but I did expect more, and lag will have a huge negative impact. The whole new mode is basically setting you to level 0 and using your mining laser, it being split into 3 worlds doesn't really make it more varied. The new profession... eh it's something to work on. The new mastery is interesting though, after all it's hard for every game to have everything lack.

As a long time player, I no longer hold onto "promises for the future" but evaluate as it comes. If they deliver for the future, brilliant! That's what we all want. But in order to get there, I think it's important to iterate that we want more instead of giving the impression that the in game flaws are meaningless. We've had so many promises in the past, plasma fishing didn't come for so long, ring forging literally never came, heck we haven't even heard about the yabaki contest that finished the start of the year. I will evaluate content as it comes. There were things in the past that I didn't care so much about for example sky realm felt so empty, but I had no issue with others sharing hype because the game was still in beta and showed potential. Time has elapsed now, and quality wise it still feels like a beta product. In fact, apart from server downtimes, performance itself was actually solid from my experience.

tl;dr: I want trove to be a game the devs can be proud of delivering something genuinely good instead of getting a participation trophy. I admit, I've cared too much for Trove and should have let go, but I'm a little stubborn about moving on. Habit and unmotivation are strong forces :c

I'm glad we can manage to have different opinions without taking it as a personal attack. That is also something I think the general population needs to work upon. I know that some people don't tend to like what I say, even if I do have best interests at heart.

I get what you mean. I'm a long time player as well. Not a beta player, but I've been here long enough to remember the queue times. This feels different from the previous promises, though.

They're actually listening to feedback and changing things when people mention them. They've fixed the unfair early club level exp requirements, which I, as the leader of a medium-sized low level club, have been hoping would happen for a while. People complained about the module upgrade costs and they've changed that significantly. The level 5 gas upgrade used to cost 820 of certain ores and now it's 110. People asked for lore, and now we have a whole new world, complete with NPCs that talk randomly about stuff. Even the particle effects are something I personally would have been willing to use strange fixture work-arounds to get(had those worked) just a month ago.

I agree that we need to make sure the devs understand what we expect from them, but I feel like we should also let them know when it seems like they're taking steps in the right direction. I'm really glad this didn't turn out to be a repeat of Heroes and I want to thank the devs so that they know the extra effort is appreciated and continue to make updates where they listen to feedback and actually try their best to improve the game and add new, major things.

cerkaz
05-26-2018, 10:07 AM
I agree that we need to make sure the devs understand what we expect from them, but I feel like we should also let them know when it seems like they're taking steps in the right direction. I'm really glad this didn't turn out to be a repeat of Heroes and I want to thank the devs so that they know the extra effort is appreciated and continue to make updates where they listen to feedback and actually try their best to improve the game and add new, major things.
They been doing that for ages tho, i don't really see any progress. If we exclude PTS, where everything is new and unbalanced.
They ONLY fix stuff after serveral complaints, it's like x number of people has to write before something happends. Look at how long it took for them to lower the xp required to level clubs. We still don't have any "long quests" Which been asked for so long, aswell as being able to get quest in a menu instead of clubworlds...


There is so much stuff, that could use a proper rework, but it's like they can only work at one thing at a time and that thing is only new content..

Awestacular
05-27-2018, 03:31 AM
Yes, thank you devs.

Now, let's be fair. Devs don't control the underlying system. They control the interface/game play style.

The devs didn't say "we won't fix the lag". That was a decision made by the people who fund the devs.

Put blame where it is due.

Trove needs a firehose for it's pipeline, and it has a 1/2" garden hose. That's not a dev issue, it's a trion issue. Stop blaming the devs for things outside their control.

cerkaz
05-27-2018, 04:00 AM
Yes, thank you devs.

Now, let's be fair. Devs don't control the underlying system. They control the interface/game play style.

The devs didn't say "we won't fix the lag". That was a decision made by the people who fund the devs.

Put blame where it is due.

Trove needs a firehose for it's pipeline, and it has a 1/2" garden hose. That's not a dev issue, it's a trion issue. Stop blaming the devs for things outside their control.

Ofc, When i say dev i mean the whole team, not "only the community manager or whoever designed slow sebastian etc.

The devs does have a bigger responsibility in saying that "This is a bad direction" or " We should focus a bit more on fixing the servers before unloading so much new content" Than the players does tho.

fruitie
05-27-2018, 04:12 AM
Yes, thank you devs.

Now, let's be fair. Devs don't control the underlying system. They control the interface/game play style.

The devs didn't say "we won't fix the lag". That was a decision made by the people who fund the devs.

Put blame where it is due.

Trove needs a firehose for it's pipeline, and it has a 1/2" garden hose. That's not a dev issue, it's a trion issue. Stop blaming the devs for things outside their control.

In other threads, sure people have used the devs as the general ones to blame. Here seems to be trion as a whole which includes the devs that gets pointed at. Obviously not everyone is at fault, I don't think I've seen much against art for example who have little to do with the rest of the game. I'm pretty sure the devs on livestream were the one's saying that lag is their priority as well as fasti on the forums and Rick a while ago. There are obviously decisions made above them that are to blame. Also as we don't have access to the code, we can't say how much the "underlying system" affects development. Though that doesn't mean the devs are immune from fault even if it does have its issues. They still created this. Past all that, they are also the ones who came up with the system to get 1 adventure that doesn't last too long at higher tiers, require you to go back to club and rejoin the adventure world. At the same time only information on 1 club you're in is shown. Furthermore to maximise your adventurine, you want to completely disregard the clubs your in, and get quests from clubs that have better quests whether you're part of them or not. Those are clearly design issues from the devs. Those kinds of issues date way back. I mean remember when dust took up inventory space? I can't even imagine playing with that system now.

INN3R_C4L4M1TY
05-27-2018, 04:13 AM
Yes, thank you devs.

Now, let's be fair. Devs don't control the underlying system. They control the interface/game play style.

The devs didn't say "we won't fix the lag". That was a decision made by the people who fund the devs.

Put blame where it is due.

Trove needs a firehose for it's pipeline, and it has a 1/2" garden hose. That's not a dev issue, it's a trion issue. Stop blaming the devs for things outside their control.

Well, they've mentioned that if a lack of servers was the problem, they'd buy more servers. The problem is how difficult it is to optimize an MMO, especially one like Trove. There are thousands of little things that each take a certain amount of time. Any one taking longer than the others could cause lag.

They've also mentioned that right now, club worlds are one of the things most in need of optimization, which answers the inevitable 'Well, then why don't other MMOs lag this much?' question. Just think about how many clubs there are in Trove. Club worlds go to a max size of 8,000 x 256 x 8,000, IIRC... Multiply that together. That is a massive quantity of important data. If you spent half an hour building something in your club and it reverted, you'd be way more upset than if you spent half an hour rubberbanding. Now think about how often club worlds are edited and how many different kinds of blocks there can be in a club.

I have no idea how they set up the servers to handle storing and updating all of that data, but that must be an absolute nightmare to optimize. And that's just one of the bigger things causing lag. I heard generating new worlds was one of the other things, which would make sense considering the size of each adventure world, the number of biomes, and how many different dungeons there are.

Basically, the reason Trove lags more than other games is likely because it uses a world system that has to frequently generate new adventure worlds and update existing club worlds, instead of using prebuilt worlds like the MMOs people often bring up when discussing lag do, not because the devs are lazy or because someone isn't buying enough servers.

Awestacular
05-27-2018, 05:13 AM
It isn't that the lag cannot be fixed, it's that it is not cost effective to fix the lag. This was stated long ago. It's not a dev choice, they'll help where they can but that's about it.

It is what it is.

This type of complaining is just beating a dead horse.

fruitie
05-27-2018, 06:04 AM
It isn't that the lag cannot be fixed, it's that it is not cost effective to fix the lag. This was stated long ago. It's not a dev choice, they'll help where they can but that's about it.

It is what it is.

This type of complaining is just beating a dead horse.

If people aren't complaining then they don't care and just move on. They are free to not improve things, but at the same time we are free to claim that it's not in our interests and are free to not spend money on a defective product. Terraria for example is a game 7 years old that still have 5 times the amount of players on steam. Despite getting updates still (not much last year apart from 4k support), it's not an MMO where people are encouraged to continue playing so one would assume that they rely even more on new players playing. There's no reason why a well made trove couldn't do even better and grow instead of steadily losing players. Also if they don't want people complaining, then perhaps they shouldn't keep saying how they are working on it? Of course people are going to call them out on it if they're promising one thing and delivering another. They're just stringing people along. You can't have it both ways.

There's no barrier for entry in this game, but people just don't want into it unless they're part of the dedicated few who have just accepted it. Though I will admit that with the time that has passed, people probably are less willing to give trove a 2nd chance if they did suddenly fix everything. Still you can't argue that this last update on live wasn't a big screw up. So many issues, and the fixes just broke things further. Just remember, complaints are what give opportunity for improvement. If we just want to say "well done", trove will not improve.