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CryoGX
02-16-2018, 08:34 PM
First post in a LONG while, but we're gonna go ahead and dive right into it!

TL;DR - This class is hits close to the mark mechanically, but is NOT quite there yet. Vanguardian's lack of mobility skills is not justified by its mechanics like other classes that lack them. A couple changes to what skills do will make this class feel INFINITELY more fleshed out. The feel and the fun of this class are much more important than the numbers, imo. Fun first, math second.

This thread does not take into account the class gem so if it addresses this issue then consider whatever point I make relevant to it to be moot.

So far, this is a pretty lit class (FINALLY a fist guy!), my dudes, HOWEVER; I do have an argument as to why this class feels incomplete and how it can be fleshed out, and I'm pretty sure you dudes knew this to a degree as to release Vanguardian to us this early, so I really appreciate that decision and the opportunity!



What I Like

Summary:
-Incredible premise, taking from fighting games, in a sense, despite being a hero
-A true, versatile hybrid class
-The coolest animations in Trove yet!
-PUNCH PUNCH PUNCHPUNCHPUNCHPUNCHPU--
-DAB

Regardless of the gripes I have with it right now, this is a very hype class. Seriously, unbelievable work so far you guys; it's clear how much effort, energy, and love was put into the idea of this class. The animations (except the normal ranged firing animation) really do it for this class, and wailing on someone with high attack speed punches feels incredible.



What Could be Better

Summary:
-This class lacks a definitive ultimate
-The long cooldowns of this class shoot its potential fluidity in the foot.
-This class lacks fluidity/mobility and could be refined to be so much smoother and faster paced.
-Point 1 and 2 exponentially exacerbate point 3.

Before I start, if the reason why VanG lacks mobility skills is for "difficulty" let me personally say I think your costing potential fun for that, which should never be the case.

This class's mobility, for a (lone) damage dealer is highly lacking. It is not Shadow Hunter, as it is not reserved to the backline. It is not Dracolyte/Chloro/Rev, as it is not supposed to tank hits and/or summon. It is not Tomb Raiser/Pirate, as it is not supposed to ghost through hits and let others work for it. This class is lone DPS, and lacks the mobility that other classes of this type have without the utility to make up for it.

I don't care if I have stats that let me live through everything, regardless; the important thing is the perceived feel of the gameplay.


Melee mode VanG has a skill that increases its movement speed, but despite this-- despite the numbers increasing--I do not feel quite as fast as I should, like most of my melee counterparts. I do not FEEL as wild as a super hero punching his way to victory SHOULD. The other melee classes have skills that give them bursts of mobility on top of their damage as to keep them safe, but Vanguard can only walk faster in combat.

Ranged mode VanG has a skill that increases its attack speed, but I AM NOT AS SAFE as my Gunslinger counterpart, as I do not have a skill that lets me jump out of harm's way. I do not have a way to stun enemies. I do not have any utility aside from being able to shoot and shoot faster. Mechanically, this by itself is shallow, especially considering another class literally does this.

When put together with its other mode, it feels slightly better, but the cooldowns make tactical swapping far too clunky. Out of all of the classes in this game Vanguardian, by mechanical design deserves a low cooldown ultimate. It does not have access to a traditional nuke skill. Swapping, unlike traditional ultimates, does not offer good reason other than "every ult is like that" to have as long of a CD as it does. It needs to be reduced like the plague, because when you're brawling someone, every second matters.

There is too much "empty time" spent auto-attacking due to both swapping taking too long to cool down, and each individual mode offering little to no utility by itself to diversify gameplay.

By giving this class two states and not fully capitalizing on both of them, its problems echo much louder than a fully fledged traditional class. There is no "in between" for a hybrid; the whole thing has to flow.

Classes with mobility skills
Neon Ninja: Stasis Blade and Shadow Flip
Gunslinger: Super Jump
Candy Barbarian: Sugar Crash
Knight: Charge
Fae Trickster: Blink
Lancer: Grapple
Dino Tamer: A literal T-Rex.

Classes without mobility skills and why
Boomeranger: The entire class is utility, for better or worse.
Tomb Raiser: MINIONS!
Pirate Captain: CANNONS!
Draco: God of sustained AoE damage + an offtank.
Chloromancer: Is a support (technically)
Revenant: Why does a wall need to move
Vanguardian: "lol just dab bro"



What I personally suggest

Mechanical Change Ideas

Enable us to chain moves into Dabsh/Each other
(I'm unironically calling it the Dabsh)
>>This change alone would actually render most of the next unnecessary. Basically, let us be able to do cancel out the animation of our Dabsh into a move, before the entire dab finishes. What this means is that while Dabsh-ing, we'll be able to perform any move while its momentum is still carrying us. This is an advanced technique found in other games (especially fighters), and I feel like it would REALLY give this class the "expert" tag it deserves. Imagine being able to dab, turn around, then Eye beam them before they can actually react to you.


Add a forward-leaping AoE leaping punch to Force Flash before starting its effect (possibly getting rid of the former damage effect in the process)
https://i.gyazo.com/e46e8c2aba89e787c670e9242e6c8bee.gif
>>Seriously, Vanguardian's punch mode has the least range in the game and you don't give it any gap closing skills? Before you tell me about Force Flash's effect, let me ask you what kind of super hero walks on the battlefield? The way Touchdown works feels too slow (and flight is hard to handle in close proximity) to replace what I'm talking about.

Add a Backstep to Plasma Blast
>>Again, Ranged mode has no way of saving itself outside of swapping modes, and swapping modes has far too high of a cooldown to be tactical. I'm frequently stuck waiting for the CD with no escape moves aside from Dabsh (yes I'm calling the dodge that).

Change the animation of Ranged Vanguard's M1 motion
>>It's literally Gunslinger's animation right now. I feel it could be changed to VanG punching out the shockwaves instead.


Skill Number Change Ideas

Reduce cooldown of swapping skill.
>>Again, it does not need to be that high for a class that literally lacks an actual ultimate. It feels too clunky for comfort. This is low-key a skill that does not require a cooldown at all as it offers no DPS advantage; you are literally just accessing more of your basic skills.

Reduce Cooldoown (and likely power) of Ranged Buff Skill, but increasing its usability
>>It feels like a cut-paste of Gunslinger's Ultimate at the moment. The only class that should have Gunslinger's ultimate is Gunslinger, don't you think? Ranged VanG is clunky in the sense that the vast majority of its kit takes half a minute to become reusable.

Reduce time it takes for Touchdown to begin
>>It takes like a good 2-3 seconds to be able to take advantage of VanG's passive in a practical situation, making this skill not worth using outside of initiating combat. I'm fine with that, but being able to leap out of a moderate-sized tree and charge straight into the ground would be even more fun.



Conclusion
This class is definitely an awesome premise and I love it and am all for it, however it's definitely clear that it has so much more potential to be both fundamentally a more advanced, and a more fun class, before even taking balancing into consideration.

If you've read through all of this then I greatly appreciate it, and I hope my ideas have some merit!

Joji
02-16-2018, 10:19 PM
i really agree with your points here. i really like the concept i know it could really be good but right now it lacks an incentive to change modes in mid-battle too. i feel like if they put vanguard on live as it is right now it will be only used on ranged mode (while i think it should work like a combo machine that incentives players to change between positions for a better dps)

i would also say that makes no sense for melee being a suportive one and ranged a dps. that should be swaped since we already got a lot of ranged dps and melee support

BenPeterMcD
02-16-2018, 11:55 PM
also the fact that its current subclass is a 3rd class 2 give us MORE JUMP Why trion why can't its subclass give energy regen?? its like the 1 of few stats no other subclass does.....

Tortorion
02-17-2018, 09:12 AM
For sure:

- Energy cost of [M2] skill while in melee mode is too big.
- We don't need knockback in this game, it's not usefull in group fight and non-boss fight.


Personally, I would leave the Vanguardian as it is but only with small changes.

Vanguardian is the first class that uses Claws as a weapon. This means that in the future (MAYBE 1 class per 1 season: Spring-Summer-Autumn-Winter) we will receive more classes that will also use Claws. I'm guessing that one of the classes will be devoted mainly to Martial Arts and then the words written by @CryoGX would be very helpful in its creation. Using a combination of [SHIFT] + [M1] / [M2] / [1] and [2] that would change all of the skills to other together with more damage is really good.

Vanguardian is a mix of melee & ranged class, The farm will usually be used in Melee mode, and the Shadow Tower in Ranged mode, except that Melee mode is not as strong (Multi-target DPS) as Ranged (Single-target DPS) mode.

Personally, I would slightly increase the damage [M1] for Melee mode, I would add more base Movement Speed ​​(like in Lunar Lancer) and edited / changed class gem by [M2]. The laser in the eyes + his passive ability as in flight (crash with AoE damage with a large range). Why? In dungeons there is no place for a flight, which will charge the passive, even if we charge it, we will usually hit Cursed Skull, which will spawn the mobs without hurting them.

Ranged mode? Eh... Animations look very much like Gunslinger's. Vanguardian is a superhero! Do you know what would make him more cool? Shooting and using skills when using the wings! What's more, re-use [Space Bar] would not make his wings disappear.

Yes, very similar to Gunslinger but welp, as a distance class, he need something that will take over his aggro. Equally good at a low HP (passive with a cooldown) can spawn 2 of his dabbing clones that have AoE, 1 sec stun and which will allow him to increase the distance.

See
02-17-2018, 11:25 AM
Pretty fun but knock back needs to be fixed and removed or turned into only a small knockup like said on stream. Also he needs about a 4x buff to be considered equal to GS, right now hes hardly better than the joke of a class, the SH

Halcy
02-17-2018, 11:32 AM
Pretty fun but knock back needs to be fixed and removed or turned into only a small knockup like said on stream. Also he needs about a 4x buff to be considered equal to GS, right now hes hardly better than the joke of a class, the SH

True. /10chars

phagy
02-17-2018, 12:53 PM
any points on to its passive? i find the passive really pointless or im doing it wrong that it only activates about 2/2.5sec? into gliding mode,was expecting it to be right away or earlier timing atleast 1sec in. its cool that you can destroy blocks only when you land but sadly not when you crash straight into a wall.
Also it only applies to wings gliding and not flying mount which means if you to have fun with its passive you will need to forsake flying mounts.
Another note i saw is a vfx when im riding land mount no idea what that is all about maybe cause im using knight subclass on.

mechanics of vanguard seem sortof lackluster
1) its melee skills, the eye laser would be good if it can be aimed at allowing shooting up/down direction instead of straight forward. there are some classes have similar attacks like draco normal attack which means players couldnt hit targets higher or lower or do stuffs like jumping and hitting down. maybe its the design of the skill but would be good if its changed into a projectile to allow more control.
its 2nd skill aoe pulse is alright not so great nor bad just fine not much to comment on that.

2)As for its range mode skills, im not sure is it lag or just bad detection or the hitbox is just small or some odd reasons the animation doesnt seem smooth. i had issues where the blast shot doesnt appear when used yet it still used up my energy so im probably thinking its sort of animation issue kinda similar to lunar lancer spear swinging skill where you cannot do auto attack inbetween as it will cancel off the animation thus skills not cast properly though energy is being consumed.
i was expecting something like gunslinger charged shot where u can fire off the charged shot while still holding down auto fire and it will still have a smooth cast animation but what i had experienced so far from vanguard range mode for the blast shot skill is either the blast shot projectile didnt shoot off.

Overall the new class vanguard need quite alot of tweaks to make it more fine tuned smooth in terms of its mechanics. stuffs like i mentioned the rest would be minor like its skills energy cost and ultimate skill cooldown being too long and have a more significant effect. cause to be honest the transition in ultimate skills is not impactful like being able to just do a forward / backward movement and knocking mobs back...

one good point about this new class is the double set of skills due from its ultimate and the hybrid playstyle it gives. its same to league of legend introduce the champion: jayce with its 2 set of skills transition. hope to see more future class or maybe and upgrade for all class to go seperate paths into having more diversed playstyle but i guess thats for another topic.

edit: erm what is this class gem ? as i didnt get that far into it so maybe someone could list it out? hopefully it would improve its overall skills.

Ibita
02-18-2018, 01:32 AM
For everyone information, Vanguardian's class gem is reducing slightly all of his abilities' cooldown whenever you land the final hit of his basic attack combo, 3 on melee (the uppercut) and probably 5 on range. From what I experience, you can reset all of your abilities quite quickly with a decent amount of AS (gears and subclasses).

Though, I think the knock back from upper should be removed, it is not as bad as Knight's old M2, but still kind of annoying. A stun is probably a better replacement.

His melee M2 (~33 energy per cast) should cost a bit less energy as it acts more like a debuff, not something he needs to spam. It also needs to have some sort of indication on mobs that is affected by the debuff.

His range M2 (~33 energy per cast) should cost a lot less energy as it is his only AoE option in range mode and it is pretty slow.

Joji
02-18-2018, 02:56 AM
the aim at melee M2 its going to all the wrong places but not the expected one


the 2 in both melee and ranged should go on the mouse direction and not to the space where the character its facing

the 1 on ranged have his animation finishing before the buff end

the class gem could reduce the cooldown in larger amounts but only work on the 2 so would make sense to change between stances in battle (and make the gameplay more fluid allowing the player to use it more often)

Thorvik
02-18-2018, 09:39 AM
Since this class does not have an Ultimate, Why do we have the Ultimate cooldown? (Its on that button, it must have a cooldown?) I would remove the cooldown to make this class flow much better between the Melee fists, and then switching to ranged for shooting that mob that runs away, then switching back to melee.

With the long cooldown time, the class feels too much like the GS. I.E. I'm just going to stay in Ranged mode since it takes too long to switch. If you want it to stand out, then the cooldown needs to be greatly reduced if not removed altogether.

Rikter101
02-18-2018, 09:49 AM
Hey, NN can dab to, just type /bow and u do a dab :D

Craftsman42
02-18-2018, 07:43 PM
So here's my first thoughts of the class abilities:

Passive: Rather lackluster. Breaking blocks is cool in concept, but doesn't help the class. If it has to stay that way, it could be more useful if it broke blocks on the side, or stunned/hurt enemies, but I don't like it.

M1: No comments here.

M2 melee: Not what the close range needs. The class needs more mobility, and maybe swapping that out with a dash or something would probably do the trick.

1 melee: I forget it exists.

M2 ranged: It looks the same as M1. Not sure if that's good or bad.

1 ranged: Has its uses, so it's OK for me, but again, I forget it's there.

Ultimate: What's the point? Cooldown is way too long, and there is no benefit to changing modes. Either make it so the ultimate has a combo attack when you activate it, increase the distance of the forward and backward dash, and/or reduce the cooldown. Not sure how this could abuse the vial of ultimate power, but the chance is there. This is a cool idea, where you can have 2 modes for a class, but it's too clunky to bother using. Just go with ranged and forget about 2 as it is.

Class gem: Good idea, just haven't had the chance to play with it. Nothing to say about it.

Again, cool concept, and I am hyped for it, but there's definitely room for improvement.

Now can I or can I not use class coins to unlock it? That's the only reason I saved mine from the essentials pack.

CryoGX
02-18-2018, 08:20 PM
Aiight I got the class gem and I've got even more feedback, this time for individual moves.

Passive: Awesome premise but completely impractical in execution. Its slow use speed and reliance on flight (and the fact it destroys dungeon blocks and flight's hard to aim from afar) makes this skill a less accessible ambush attack. I personally think the effect of the class gem should be on here and the class gem should get something more radical.

M1: Okay before anything else: change the ranges version's animation to be something original. I mentioned it already but it's a little annoying to see GS's animation here.

Melee mode has good potential for utility in its uppercut, but the fact that it can sometimes knock enemies AWAY from the shortest range class in the game is incredibly counterintuitive. I'd personally suggest a snare but then pvp would be hell to balance probably. I like the uppercut launching upwards, just not away.

Ranged needs it's animation changed, again. Also I feel like the attack's effective range is a little too high. It can encourage people to literally just camp in this mode. In a class that needs both melee and range there needs to be rqualyincentive to cycle through both.

M2: The main mobbing skill and definitely my favorite thing about the class. Melee mode feels great when you delete dudes with your eyeballs, and ranged mode is literally a hadouken down to the animation so no complaints there.

However idk if it was lag but it feels like if you get hit while in the charging animation for the ranged version, the skill gets stopped and you lose energy and deal no damage.

1: They're very practical but lackluster. They're literally just active buffs that don't offer anything significant, mechanically or address a situation. They just exist to be spammed when off cooldown. However I'm not against em, but as they are, they feel basic/underloaded. I feel like melee version could suck in enemies/increase defense and ranged could push them away.

2: Swap skill really does not need a cooldown. All it encourages imo is staying in one mode and forgetting about swapping. It removes a lot of potential depth from the class as it's easy to get into the grind and stop bothering with modes outside of personal preference or purposely timing your buff for use in the other mode.

If it's a hybrid class it should flow between both modes rather than be a pick and choose. Right now it feels like VanG just wants to be two different classes and never fully utilize the fact it has more basic skills but no ult.

Class Gem: Forgive me here but I feel like this class should not have even needed to exist. CGs help solve key problems of a class and this one helps, but the fundamental class should not be this clunky just to slightly make up for it in the endgame. That's not fun. This skill would be more practical as Vangaurdian's passive if you insist on keeping the cooldowns, and the class gem should offer something more offensively in terms of utility/mobility to make up for the lack of an actual ultimate.

Plague_Bearer
02-18-2018, 09:42 PM
Super simplified feedback from me on this is the range mode feels too much like playing gun slinger, otherwise i like the hero conceptually. Melee mode feels pretty good to me.

CryoGX
02-20-2018, 06:30 AM
http://forums.trovegame.com/showthread.php?131801-PTS-Patch-Notes-February-19-2018-Part-2

https://i.gyazo.com/5e457dfb68eff5cfe85115a1e48e5764.png

Hey guys they updated the class so make sure to post feedback after trying it out! I won't be able to login for a bit to try out the changes but it's looking like they're keeping this CD-based direction.

Now everything's on 20s CD and the CG's buffed so that does mean less clunkiness and more effectiveness from the gem.

Additionally here are some coefficients and numbers tested out by Oakiyo on the Trove Wiki. Note that not everything's the same as the patch notes in this so be sure to test things out thoroughly for yourself before adding more feedback!

https://i.gyazo.com/605d8fe4da1d82e0bf413965148c502d.png
https://i.gyazo.com/4aa133ff57a4250bd5ec792a974333e4.png
https://i.gyazo.com/3ee1de0e66d367e8dda7fe0fd9108729.png

Joji
02-20-2018, 07:25 AM
the class gem its working much better now but the 1 still dont really work well and melee combo got a even greater knockback... the monsters are going so far that they lose threat and start walking

CryoGX
02-20-2018, 02:40 PM
the class gem its working much better now but the 1 still dont really work well and melee combo got a even greater knockback... the monsters are going so far that they lose threat and start walking

Yeah I'm in game right now and idk what the heck's up but I'm sure this is completely unintentional.

Yo everyone else, Vanguardian's Melee uppercut not only knocks enemies up still, but it also knocks them back in an arc, far away from the player. Please tell me that this was not intentional lmao.

TheDeadEye
02-21-2018, 06:21 AM
Yeah I'm in game right now and idk what the heck's up but I'm sure this is completely unintentional.

Yo everyone else, Vanguardian's Melee uppercut not only knocks enemies up still, but it also knocks them back in an arc, far away from the player. Please tell me that this was not intentional lmao.

Hey, makes good crowd control.

CryoGX
02-21-2018, 09:10 AM
Here's my feedback for the class as of yesterday (2/20) my dudes.

Key changes so far:

>Swap and range buff cooldown's been reduced, melee buff cd increased; all skills now have 20s CD

>Class gem was increased in effectiveness to where every 3rd consectutive melee hit and 5th consecutive ranged hit reduces all cooldowns by 1 second.

>Ranged's...range has been reduced to be less of Shadow Hunter and Gunslinger

>Ranged buff increases damage by 50% now

>Knockup was "fixed" in yesterday's patch. I know it's being addressed in today's build so I won't provide feedback there.

>Overall damage was buffed


Good direction so far, but it's still a ways out from truly being there, IMO. I've Here's my current gripes, and I discussed em with other players such as Comply yesterday:

>The class, down to its frame data, is fundamentally clunky. Frame data is the term for how long every aspect of every move lasts down to 60ths of a second, and is a term used most often in fighting games. Its animations and requirement to constantly land a 3rd/5th consecutive hit without stopping conflict with each other as any action drops the entire combo that you need to utilize.

>Unlike other classes, Vangaurdian is supposed to switch stances regularly to maximize DPS. Ranged mode doesn't have as much inherent damage as melee does, but it has the buff that violently increases melee mode's DPS, so there is, in fact, decent incentive to switch in the endgame.

>However, when coupled with your class gem, the fluidity of dancing through modes gets shot in the foot. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you do that isn't constantly attacking stops your combo and lowers the effectiveness of your class gem, even if you flask once and go back to attacking. This is because of how long all the animations for the class last without being able to be canceled out.


Suggested Changes:
-Add Animation Cancelling: for those that do not know, animation cancelling is when you start a move, and you can do another move before the entire move finishes playing. What this enables is the ability to quickly chain moves together. I believe this should be implemented within every move that Vanguardian has, including its dodge, as, unlike other classes, it absolutely HAS to maintain strings of hits between modes to most efficiently reduce its cooldowns and increase DPS.
-Add a true Combo Counter to the passive. Reward the user for making more hits in a row, and have this reward last long enough to let them flask or do anything else, without sacrificing as much damage. Make them more powerful the longer they fight. EX: Every 3 consecutive hits you land within 3 seconds of each other gives 1% damage, up to double damage at a 300 hit combo.
-Lower cooldown of swap skill to 10 seconds: For a class that prioritizes swapping, why should a cooldown need to be in the way of literally its most fundamental mechanic? It's not an ult; it's its core skill.
-Make the ranged combo end on every 4th or 3rd hit instead of 5th: Ranged combos take too long to do compared to melee and are that much easier to drop, leaving you in ranged mode that much longer when you have a class gem. Travel time and distance of the projectiles should be factored into this as well.
-Change the ranged basic firing animation: I'm pretty sure you're aware of it by now but I will keep saying it until the day it's patched with an original animation over it, since it's literally Gunslinger.

CryoGX
02-21-2018, 04:14 PM
Sorry for the double-post but I think this is meaningful enough to warrant it.

https://i.gyazo.com/1a80aac8a33cda2f0f59725bf089974b.png

So here's today's changes.

What's good
-Vanguardian's Melee mode feels a bit smoother to play and transition into.
-Needing one less projectile to end the ranged combo feels a ton better.
-Complete removal of knockback feels great; I can now DBZ someone into oblivion.
-Overall it's definitely getting there and I'm glad you guys are fine-tuning the class for us this quickly.

What could be better
-Vanguardian still has long, clunky animations for Fired Up and the skill for swapping into Ranged mode (forgot what it was called). They're clunky in the sense that Vangaurdian stands in place after the animation ends for a split second before they can attack. It doesn't feel fluid, especially compared to Melee mode.

-I forgot that those that get hit by your Laser Eyes take a debuff; there should be an indication for that.

-Vanguardian still lacks something "big" to tie together the whole package, IMO. I still feel that the passive is underloaded and can have another benefit added to it.


Suggestions
-Let Vanguardian attack faster/earlier out of Fired up's and Swap's animations.
-Additionally, let Vanguardian attack out of Dabsh before it ends (think about it; it'd be so much fun lol)
-Add an indicator for those debuffed by Laser Vision.
-Change Ranged mode's default firing animation to be something more original.
-Add a buff to Vanguardian's passive that temporarily boosts its damage by X% every time it changes modes, and have it stack up to Y times (Have it last like 15 seconds to make the class gem that much more important to have!). Vanguardian's main mechanic is dancing through both modes so it'd make sense to reward the player for constantly doing this and not camping in one mode.
-Remove Herobrine