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SlyRam
06-30-2017, 03:31 PM
There are 6 dungeons now in ST and you want people to farm 1200 fragments each week just to get the rewards they got before? Are you kidding me? I'd rather quit than be forced to grind regular uber worlds just to get fragments in order to progress in shadow towers, this patch is ridiculous. The least you can do is turn down the fragment requirement to get keys if you're forcing everybody into grinding regular ubers for fragments - _- 50 would be fine per key if you are going to force us to grind worlds we never would grind in before (other than for events). At least make them droppable in elemental worlds if you absolutely have to push this on us.

And as a side note, 377 HEARTS OF DARKNESS? WHAT? It takes 377 hearts of darkness to get all the new stuff in the shadow tower yet, shadow caches still do not drop from regular chests. You have to use keys to open the chests, which now means you are using potential weeks worth of rewards just to get a measly amount of shadow items (radiant/stellar IF you are lucky) and a stupendously low amount of caches. This patch has a lot of great stuff in it, sure! Yet, are you really going to push that kind of expense on players? 377 hearts of darkness is 7.5mil flux worth currently on the live economy and you better believe it's going to be FAAAAAR more once the top 100 or so players start mass buying hearts of darkness. This is going to downright break anybody and everybody on the game.

The kind of price you are pushing on regular players is an unachieveable task, we are talking many months worth of straight up grindfest in order to get anywhere in the shadow tower now. To make the souls obtainable via keys only is dreadful, why do people who play little have to suffer through this now? Not everybody has time to grind 300 1 star dungeons or 120 3 star dungeons a week just to get rewards! Come on! (and that's on friday mind you, fragment day without patron, more on any other day of the week).

I speak for a great many of people when I say this is truly and profoundly ridiculous Trion.

Boldsen
06-30-2017, 03:59 PM
Trove right now is grinding without purpose, this update atleast adds something to grind for, only problem i have with the update is gem rerolling.

KoBeWi
06-30-2017, 04:09 PM
I agree with the key part. I'm unhappy that I need more of them, because I always don't have enough. This makes it much harder to progress, while playing casually.

Ointment
06-30-2017, 04:11 PM
Agreed. This isn't the solution to alt farmers unless they greatly lower the fragment cost.

DarkPineapple
06-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Keys should be cheaper or shadow caches more common. Probably both.

Ointment
06-30-2017, 04:17 PM
Additionally, you need a crapton of souls for the new gem augments. Only worsens the issue.

fruitie
06-30-2017, 04:18 PM
While it's only partly an issue, I've always agreed that the fragment is a bit much, at least in the sense of how a lot of people want to play. People complained when shadow gems were a thing that there weren't enough shadow gems, but it's kind of a pointless change if the fix only made it harder and the old problem was just an issue of having to chuck away excess fragments. I also found it quite insulting that their way to combat it was to increase fragments given via patron (albeit still isn't something you really want to farm for). So while I think it could be better, there are other things that could have an increased quality of life.

But in general I think this game is becoming too grindy for me with certain elements that just aren't designed well at all.

DarkPineapple
06-30-2017, 05:14 PM
If they just gave everyone the fragments of patron..... that would fix the problem in my eyes. Would devalue patron though so they are biased against it.

ExoDave
06-30-2017, 05:46 PM
Key fragments needed should be reduced by a small amount for casual players to reliably get ST rewards with minimal frustration.

I do not agree 100% that heart of darkness needs to be more common. However I do believe some items should be made cheaper if market price for Heart of darkness remains high.

Sphericalicious
06-30-2017, 06:30 PM
It takes me atleast 30 minutes to get around or less than 50 eclipse frags in u9 and that's WITHOUT the lag and mayhem that Trove servers are known for.

Batman
06-30-2017, 08:29 PM
And as a side note, 377 HEARTS OF DARKNESS? WHAT? It takes 377 hearts of darkness to get all the new stuff in the shadow tower

Why would one want every single item in there ? Why not just pick up one that seems fun , one that will be actively used and that's it , like I do . Unless this is about completitionists and collectors ? Then it is not as much of an issue as their numbers are dwarfed by the rest of the players . They'll just have to take more time . Collectors already commonly have plenty of resources / flux / time (just like they tend to own gandas and who knows what else (I know a few in top 10) . Competing for mastery is pointless unless one already owns the rarest items as they will still be far from the top of the leaderboard . By the time they get those , they will collect far more than 377 hearts of darkness ) . But then again , it's too much grind which is bad from all points of views .

The fragments are too much though . Only because they nerf the casual weekly run of shadow towers that has been as it is so far . But maybe the devs are stretching the line that defines the amount of time that casual players need to invest weekly .. (such as if you want all the floors and raids , then you must play more . If casual , just do one or two at best and progress at casual pace ) ..
P.S. I am a casual and I play 1 or 2 days a week .

Mr.Snek13
06-30-2017, 08:53 PM
Well to save themselves, they could just make the keys tradeable again and as everyone said the amount is gargantuant, especially for the main source of income for most of the players.

Shyne_7
07-01-2017, 12:24 AM
Key fragments needed should be reduced by a small amount for casual players to reliably get ST rewards with minimal frustration.

I do not agree 100% that heart of darkness needs to be more common. However I do believe some items should be made cheaper if market price for Heart of darkness remains high.

This ^^^^^

I agree, they should reduce the amount of fragments in order to make keys, it's unbelievably frustating.

They also need to balance in-game thingies, like gem box farming or etc, like seriously? this game is all about grinding now, we can't find a thing fun anymore, it's depressing, the game is even worse day after a day, WAKE UP, DEVS!!!

ForsakenHero
07-01-2017, 12:28 AM
Agreed. Frags should be reduced for keys and also some other ammounts should be adjusted as well.

Unknown_Y
07-01-2017, 12:39 AM
Either Reduce the fragment per key or Increase the fragment drop in Prime world.

HOD is a problem, perhaps move HOD from rare to uncommon?

Bobfishkins23
07-01-2017, 04:32 AM
Why would one want every single item in there ? Why not just pick up one that seems fun , one that will be actively used and that's it , like I do . Unless this is about completitionists and collectors ? Then it is not as much of an issue as their numbers are dwarfed by the rest of the players . They'll just have to take more time . Collectors already commonly have plenty of resources / flux / time (just like they tend to own gandas and who knows what else (I know a few in top 10) . Competing for mastery is pointless unless one already owns the rarest items as they will still be far from the top of the leaderboard . By the time they get those , they will collect far more than 377 hearts of darkness ) . But then again , it's too much grind which is bad from all points of views .

The fragments are too much though . Only because they nerf the casual weekly run of shadow towers that has been as it is so far . But maybe the devs are stretching the line that defines the amount of time that casual players need to invest weekly .. (such as if you want all the floors and raids , then you must play more . If casual , just do one or two at best and progress at casual pace ) ..
P.S. I am a casual and I play 1 or 2 days a week .
Thats because HOD drop 5 at a time now ;)

Keyser95
07-01-2017, 06:25 AM
Thats because HOD drop 5 at a time now ;)

Where do they drop 5 at time? For now i saw them only in shadow caches, opened 200 of them and found only 7 hod, so you must be talking of another source, i mean :confused:

Bobfishkins23
07-01-2017, 06:33 AM
Where do they drop 5 at time? For now i saw them only in shadow caches, opened 200 of them and found only 7 hod, so you must be talking of another source, i mean :confused:

they drop 5 at a time in shadow caches on PTS

Keyser95
07-01-2017, 06:37 AM
they drop 5 at a time in shadow caches on PTS

Wait, did you actually tried to open them? becouse i found only 7 hod in 200 shadow chache (which is insanely low imo) and never in groups of 5, for a karma loot i found 3 or 4, but never 5.

(also, in 200 shadow caches i found only 2 egg fragments...that dragon egg that requires 50 frags is quite impossible to get)

Tismij
07-01-2017, 06:47 AM
More important when are they killing of the diff keys, just use 1 key ( for fewer frags would be nice).
Why force me to farm U7 if I want to do hm st and not ultra?

Craftsman42
07-01-2017, 07:58 AM
Maybe this is off topic, but since HODs were brought up in this thread, they should be more common since now we can kill "elite enemies" in STs and get shadow shards from them.

Chronozilla
07-01-2017, 08:31 AM
I agree that it's too high, but i also want to prove a counterpoint, If the cost of keys was to go any lower, it would just give more incentive for alt farmers to go through the trouble of getting keys, and then the problem wouldn't be solved at all.

ForsakenHero
07-01-2017, 08:35 AM
I agree that it's too high, but i also want to prove a counterpoint, If the cost of keys was to go any lower, it would just give more incentive for alt farmers to go through the trouble of getting keys, and then the problem wouldn't be solved at all.
You think that someone who takes the effort to alt farm will be detered cuz of "expensive keys"?. This hurts casuals the most.

Chronozilla
07-01-2017, 08:41 AM
You think that someone who takes the effort to alt farm will be detered cuz of "expensive keys"?. This hurts casuals the most.

I do think it deters them, yeah. Atleast the majority of the alt farmers will give up on it and the economy will be able to recover a bit, and if it does, everyone is going to get richer, even the casuals.

SlyRam
07-01-2017, 08:42 AM
It takes me atleast 30 minutes to get around or less than 50 eclipse frags in u9 and that's WITHOUT the lag and mayhem that Trove servers are known for.

This is a prime example of what people go through who are not extremely over powered players who can do ~100-150+ dungeons/hour in u9. This is the average player and I certainly hope Trion listens to the casual player just as much as an elite player.

Overall Opinion:

Looking through all the responses in this thread, you've all made a good amount of points as to whether or not it should be lowered. Ultimately, based off the majority vote in this thread... it seems my original statement is proving to be best.

I'd like to request that Fasti as well as the other developers take this into consideration before releasing this patch into live.

A. Decrease the # of fragments needed to get keys [Most recommended solution]
B. Make fragments trade-able again.
C. Make keys trade-able again.
D. All of the above

PowerDj
07-01-2017, 08:42 AM
You think that someone who takes the effort to alt farm will be detered cuz of "expensive keys"?. This hurts casuals the most.

Just... this. I'm not sure how having expensive keys lowers alt farming, but there's no question that it makes it a lot more difficult for casual players to get ST loot. If they're going to nerf things just to reduce alt farming, that would be like Overwatch making guns shake all over the place to stop aimbot users. The game should be made for legitimate players, not made to dampen the effect of alt farms.

Christiaangames
07-01-2017, 08:43 AM
So now that I read this, what was the ultimate reason to make keys untradeble?

ExoDave
07-01-2017, 08:44 AM
I agree that it's too high, but i also want to prove a counterpoint, If the cost of keys was to go any lower, it would just give more incentive for alt farmers to go through the trouble of getting keys, and then the problem wouldn't be solved at all.

Ideally a balance would need to be struck. lowering the key cost might encourage more alt-farming. But we need to remember to not punish the legit casual players.
Also the flux received from Titan treasures has been reduced, The Trove team is hitting alt-farming at multiple angles.

Chronozilla
07-01-2017, 08:48 AM
Also the flux received from Titan treasures has been reduced, The Trove team is hitting alt-farming at multiple angles.
I'm not personally acquainted with the new drop rates in the boxes, but if it's lowered by a meaningful amount, that does give some leeway to lowering the fragment cost aswell.

Boldsen
07-01-2017, 08:52 AM
A. Decrease the # of fragments needed to get keys [Most recommended solution]
B. Make fragments trade-able again.
C. Make keys trade-able again.
D. All of the above

>buy keys
>trade them to alts

cancels the 1 thing they're trying to stop

Chronozilla
07-01-2017, 08:57 AM
This is a prime example of what people go through who are not extremely over powered players who can do ~100-150+ dungeons/hour in u9. This is the average player and I certainly hope Trion listens to the casual player just as much as an elite player.
It takes on average 20 dungeons to get a key, with how the game now allows you to use higher tiered keys on lower tiered end vaults, we can somewhat isolate the grind to 1-2 uber levels. Getting the 6 keys you need every week would take you 120 dungeons (in u9 for eclipse keys or u7 for moon keys) , or a little under an hour, (twice as long in u6 or u8, due to halved fragment gain) I do think we should be accomodating of casual players, but if they can't even muster up the enthusiasm to grind for 1-2 hours a week, then they really don't deserve those rewards, that's past the casual border into barely playing territory.

DuckButtCut
07-01-2017, 09:17 AM
It takes on average 20 dungeons to get a key, with how the game now allows you to use higher tiered keys on lower tiered end vaults, we can somewhat isolate the grind to 1-2 uber levels. Getting the 6 keys you need every week would take you 120 dungeons (in u9 for eclipse keys or u7 for moon keys) , or a little under an hour, (twice as long in u6 or u8, due to halved fragment gain) I do think we should be accomodating of casual players, but if they can't even muster up the enthusiasm to grind for 1-2 hours a week, then they really don't deserve those rewards, that's past the casual border into barely playing territory.

120 dungeons is a crapload. I'm new to U9, and I don't always have people to follow or a group to farm with. In that case, how am I supposed to farm keys fast enough?

SlyRam
07-01-2017, 09:18 AM
It takes on average 20 dungeons to get a key, with how the game now allows you to use higher tiered keys on lower tiered end vaults, we can somewhat isolate the grind to 1-2 uber levels. Getting the 6 keys you need every week would take you 120 dungeons (in u9 for eclipse keys or u7 for moon keys) , or a little under an hour, (twice as long in u6 or u8, due to halved fragment gain) I do think we should be accomodating of casual players, but if they can't even muster up the enthusiasm to grind for 1-2 hours a week, then they really don't deserve those rewards, that's past the casual border into barely playing territory.

120 3 star dungeons -> You get 10 key fragments per 3 star completion on friday without patron bonus (more if you have patron), you get 4 per regular dungeon (so 300 1 star dungeons). The issue doesn't come from 1-2 hours of effort but, rather, the players who can maintain 30 dungeons/hour at best. Today I followed someone who was somewhat fresh (~12k pr) to the uber 9 portal and I asked them to just try their best to get as many done as they could in an hour. Using the timer mod I came up with 29 dungeons/hour. For players who solo uber 9 it's not as simple as 1-2 hours a week, it would take anywhere from 8-10 hours to get enough key fragments. As opposed to players who grind in groups I found the average is ~65-70 dungeons/hour if they do not have any elitists (i.e. overpowered sh/neon ninjas in their group). which would still = ~4 hours. "Casual" players hop on and play for maybe an hour or 2 a day, meaning for solo players that is 5-10 days of grinding to achieve enough keys to get the prizes. for group players that is ~2-3 days of grinding.

Not everyone has the time to play as much as they'd like, people have jobs, school/college will be coming back in for most people and there will be plenty of people who would be profoundly effected by the lack of time they have.

That being said! I am not saying make everything obtainable in an obscenely short amount of time, just simply decrease it so that those casual players do not suffer so strenuously in the long run. The solo players will be looking at more than a full day (24+hours) of just straight grinding per month in order to maintain the rewards from shadow towers now..

P.S. The player I followed did not stop for anything other than to refresh flasks and occasionally loot collect.

Bobfishkins23
07-01-2017, 09:28 AM
It takes on average 20 dungeons to get a key, with how the game now allows you to use higher tiered keys on lower tiered end vaults, we can somewhat isolate the grind to 1-2 uber levels. Getting the 6 keys you need every week would take you 120 dungeons (in u9 for eclipse keys or u7 for moon keys) , or a little under an hour, (twice as long in u6 or u8, due to halved fragment gain) I do think we should be accomodating of casual players, but if they can't even muster up the enthusiasm to grind for 1-2 hours a week, then they really don't deserve those rewards, that's past the casual border into barely playing territory.
Where the hell do you get 20 dungeons from? u9 dungeons drop 4 frags, 200/4 = 50, its 50 dungeons per key, or 300 dungeons per week, which is almost 3 hours with max efficency, or 10 hours with "casual" efficency

Chronozilla
07-01-2017, 09:35 AM
Where the hell do you get 20 dungeons from? u9 dungeons drop 4 frags, 200/4 = 50, its 50 dungeons per key, or 300 dungeons per week, which is almost 3 hours with max efficency, or 10 hours with "casual" efficency

I forgot patron doubles the amount of fragments you get, and that was the rate i based my post off of, I can see that being a problem now, but there still hasn't been presented a solution that's going to both accomodate for new players while also crushing alt farmers, None of the 4 "solutions" SlyRam posted earlier fixes the problem.
I'll post again if i come up with something, i'll be sure to have non patrons and slow players in mind this time.

SlyRam
07-01-2017, 09:45 AM
Where the hell do you get 20 dungeons from? u9 dungeons drop 4 frags, 200/4 = 50, its 50 dungeons per key, or 300 dungeons per week, which is almost 3 hours with max efficency, or 10 hours with "casual" efficency

3 star dungeons give 10 key fragments on Friday (the best day to grind out this key requirement) so 20 3 star = 200 key frags

Kitzun
07-01-2017, 10:15 AM
The amount of key fragments needed is a big problem now, people were already willing to buy dropped stellar to bypass the amount of shaper's stars needed to forge stuff making forging less important than it was before.
This will only increase this trend and have people run more after dragons, because MF.
After the increase in pearls' rarity and now that it seems like forging standard items have become the red-headed step-child of the gems' family.

But the basic problem unveiled by fragments farming is deeper: no one want to farm the Prime because what it drops is subpar compared to elemental worlds.
Beside fragments it has no interest and it is boring to farm an abstract number of items because it is mandatory to unlock more content and not by choice.
One does not feel strengthened by doing such farm but weakened.

vicotus
07-01-2017, 11:15 AM
The amount of key fragments needed is a big problem now, people were already willing to buy dropped stellar to bypass the amount of shaper's stars needed to forge stuff making forging less important than it was before.
This will only increase this trend and have people run more after dragons, because MF.
After the increase in pearls' rarity and now that it seems like forging standard items have become the red-headed step-child of the gems' family.

But the basic problem unveiled by fragments farming is deeper: no one want to farm the Prime because what it drops is subpar compared to elemental worlds.
Beside fragments it has no interest and it is boring to farm an abstract number of items because it is mandatory to unlock more content and not by choice.
One does not feel strengthened by doing such farm but weakened.

I agree with you, the main and pobably only reason I wouldnt farm prime world is because of the lower chest rate, it makes farming there an annoying chore.
I believe this is one of the best ways to fix this issue, maybe lower the key requirement as well but making box drop rate 100% would make the players even the casual ones, want to farm there. It would also allow to farm all 3 gem types at once and not focalise on just one which could really be useful for players who just reached a new uber.

I realise this might disrupt the balance since (example) fire worlds start at uber 7, so maybe lower the fire gem drop rate in boxes of the lower ubers as a countermeasure?

Shyne_7
07-01-2017, 12:20 PM
You need 300 Uber-9 Non-3-Star Bosses Dungeons a week in order to get 6 eclipse keys, that's a load of dungeons if you're too lazy to farm tbh, you also need to farm gem worlds...

As for moon keys, it's the same thing to do but in Uber-7 Non-3-Star Bosses Dungeons.

For Patron Players, amount is doubled, which means, 150 Dungeons, or if maybe you do some 3 Star Dungeons, that'll make out less than 150, but still... Painful.

Bobfishkins23
07-01-2017, 12:26 PM
You need 300 Uber-9 Non-3-Star Bosses Dungeons a week in order to get 6 eclipse keys, that's a load of dungeons if you're too lazy to farm tbh, you also need to farm gem worlds...

As for moon keys, it's the same thing to do but in Uber-7 Non-3-Star Bosses Dungeons.

For Patron Players, amount is doubled, which means, 150 Dungeons, or if maybe you do some 3 Star Dungeons, that'll make out less than 150, but still... Painful.
i ground some u9 prime today, factoring in roaming bosses, 3 star dungs, and with no patron, it took about 20 minutes to get one key. i was running at about 90-95 DPH, playing lunar lancer. i would have to grind u9 about 2 hours a week or 1 hour a week with patron, which is... okay-ish? its pretty... mediocre, not insane but not nice to farm either....

HikariBaindo
07-01-2017, 02:12 PM
What I could suggest here for Shadow Tower: Shadow Vaults is to have all mode keys combine into ONE TYPE (Normal/Hard/Ultra) and these key fragment will be dropped in ALL adventure worlds (except Everdark and Skyrealm). The amount of keys required to open the Shadow Vaults varies by the mode (e.g. Normal: 1x Shadow Vault Key, Hard: 3x Shadow Vault Key, Ultra: 5x Shadow Vault Key).

Current keys (Shadow/Moon/Eclipse) can be deconstruct into the new key fragments or be left it as legacy of the ancient.
Crafting new Shadow Vault Key, the amount of key fragments needs to be balance with the amount of drop per Boss/Lair and fair for all type of players (Elite, Casual, Newbie, Random Passerby).

These suggestion should be taken into consideration since:
- Key fragments are not restricted to Prime Adventure World (Let be fair to all players who would like to spend their time in elemental adventure world)
- Key fragments are not divided by types (remove restriction on LEVEL Uber1-5 Shadow Key Fragment, Uber6-7 Moon Key Fragment, Uber8-9 Eclipse Key Fragment), make all Uber and Elemental World drop ONE TYPE key fragments, the amount varies on the level and world type (e.g 3-Star Boss/Lair: Prime 10x fragments, Elemental 5x fragments | 1-Star Boss/Lair: Prime 4x fragments, Elemental 2x fragments). Since Shadow Vaults only require ONE TYPE of key, additional plus point, it will free up some inventory slot space.
- Key: Amount of fragments required for a key need to be fair to all type of players (Elite, Casual, Newbie, Random Passerby, Patron/NoPatron) either from crafting amount and drop amount. E.g. Increase key fragments drop amount per Boss/Lair OR Reduce the amount of key fragments for crafting key.
** Please also considering the common enemy to any game, LAG/RUBBERBAND. **

If this suggestion are not in favor since Patch Notes states otherwise:

Higher-quality keys can now be used to open Shadow Vaults. Moon Keys can open Normal and Hard Shadow Vaults, while Eclipse Keys can open Normal, Hard, and Ultra Shadow Vaults.

Lets take a look of current mechanism for Keys.
Current Key Crafting:
Shadow Key = 50 Shadow Key Fragments
Moon Key = 200 Moon Key Fragments
Eclipse Key = 200 Eclipse Key Fragments

Current Key Fragment drops (Non-Patron):
Uber 1: 1* 1x Shadow Key Fragment, 3* 5x Shadow Key Fragment
Uber 2: 1* 2x Shadow Key Fragment, 3* 6x Shadow Key Fragment
Uber 3: 1* 3x Shadow Key Fragment, 3* 7x Shadow Key Fragment
Uber 4: 1* 3-4x Shadow Key Fragment, 3* 8x Shadow Key Fragment
Uber 5: 1* 4x Shadow Key Fragment, 3* 10x Shadow Key Fragment
Uber 6: 1* 2x Moon Key Fragment, 3* 5x Moon Key Fragment
Uber 7: 1* 4x Moon Key Fragment, 3* 10x Moon Key Fragment
Uber 8: 1* 2x Eclipse Key Fragment, 3* 5x Eclipse Key Fragment
Uber 9: 1* 4x Eclipse Key Fragment, 3* 10x Eclipse Key Fragment

Perhaps an improvement on Key Crafting:
Shadow Key = 150 Shadow Key Fragments
Moon Key = 100 Moon Key Fragments
Eclipse Key = 50 Eclipse Key Fragments
** The more higher the uber, the more time taken to defeat a boss. **

OR

Balance them out:
Shadow Key = 50 Shadow Key Fragments
Moon Key = 50 Moon Key Fragments
Eclipse Key = 50 Eclipse Key Fragments

Additional suggestion/criticism to this are most welcome. Lets be positive and look for potential solution.

Peace out \o :cool:

SlyRam
07-01-2017, 02:22 PM
Perhaps an improvement on Key Crafting:
Shadow Key = 150 Shadow Key Fragments
Moon Key = 100 Moon Key Fragments
Eclipse Key = 50 Eclipse Key Fragments
** The more higher the uber, the more time taken to defeat a boss. **

OR

Balance them out:
Shadow Key = 50 Shadow Key Fragments
Moon Key = 50 Moon Key Fragments
Eclipse Key = 50 Eclipse Key Fragments

Additional suggestion/criticism to this are most welcome. Lets be positive and look for potential solution.

Peace out \o :cool:

Making shadow key fragment higher when you receive less of a reward seems counter-intuitive. I am all for the 50 key fragments each idea as, that's what I originally suggested. However, alternatively, you could also do the following.

Shadow Key = 50
Moon Key = 75
Eclipse Key = 100

Increments of 25 due to the increase in reward. These numbers would also help by halving what is expected for casual players trying to complete ultra each week. [making eclipse keys need 100 as opposed to 200] and would help even more so for players who can only do hard [ -125 needed fragments ]. Ultimately something needs to be done before this goes live...

SlyRam
07-01-2017, 02:27 PM
i ground some u9 prime today, factoring in roaming bosses, 3 star dungs, and with no patron, it took about 20 minutes to get one key. i was running at about 90-95 DPH, playing lunar lancer. i would have to grind u9 about 2 hours a week or 1 hour a week with patron, which is... okay-ish? its pretty... mediocre, not insane but not nice to farm either....

Like I said in the original post, this isn't too bad for players who can do dungeons fairly quickly, the thing is I followed around a casual player and he was struggling to reach 30 a hour in uber 9, and at 12k pr at that [2k over the entrance pr] Times like that easily triple the amount of effort needed for normal players to get what is required.

Kitzun
07-01-2017, 04:05 PM
Like I said in the original post, this isn't too bad for players who can do dungeons fairly quickly, the thing is I followed around a casual player and he was struggling to reach 30 a hour in uber 9, and at 12k pr at that [2k over the entrance pr] Times like that easily triple the amount of effort needed for normal players to get what is required.
It depends of many factors, if the class is AoE or Monotarget oriented and what the player encounters during the run, how well the guy plays, the density of dungeons per biome, the stats of his stuff (PR is NOT stats, only their theorical value), the amount of loot he can take before having to find a spot to collect, aso.

Personally I have nearly 13k PR on my CB and my gems are a total mess, and even if I die from time to time I can solo U9, I can farm it.
But if I were to farm brainless mode with a correct density I would be able to do some 60 dungeons per hour, top.
Frankly if I had to farm eclipse fragments I would simply go to U8 despite the quality of gems.

Because it does not remove the original problem: no one want to farm Prime because of the drop rate of gem boxes, fragments or not.
If I have to farm fragments for something then I will only farm enough fragment each week to have 1 key to open the DoM strongbox and that's all.
For alt classes I would make do with dropped stellars, perhaps finding some 3/4/5 stars whatever the secondary stat and waiting for a secondary rerolling week.

As I see it, people won't want to farm so many fragments in something as unattractive as the Prime for Shaper's Stars and it's the death of endgame forging we are seeing here.

SlyRam
07-02-2017, 10:58 AM
Hopefully this gets fixed before it is live.

Black Wyvern
07-03-2017, 06:10 PM
I doubt it. Would be nice. But the track record doesn't say much for us.

But as fantastic as I think this patch is over all, locking the ST rewards behind the chests is going to be the single factor that makes me stop playing Trove entirely. I'm a filthy casual with a 9.5k Drac and nothing else. I don't have hours to devote to

1. Grinding dungeons for the excessive number of shards I need to
2. Make the sixteen keys I need to
3. Open ST reward boxes so I can justify
4. Finding or coordinating an even more intensive ST group than I need now so I can
5. Spend at least another hour if not two running said ST with said group that ends up having no business even looking at the tower, much less running it, so I can eventually
6. Buy a maximum of three boxes a week that give me a
7. Remote (IE Nothing but Phys Damage and Regen Gems for last 7 weeks) possibility of getting a meaningful upgrade.

It's bad enough with steps 4-7, we don't need the extra complexity to shut down player progression entirely.

FlashExe
07-03-2017, 06:16 PM
Would be cool if the trade-post could record trades when players give lots for little/none. Keep track of accounts that frequently make those trades between the same two players and just ban the account that gives the loot. If need be, white-list streamers on the giving end. I know programming can be an issue but if that can be managed I think that would solve the problem of alt farming. If necessary the receiving account could be banned too for repeated offenses if the alt farmers decide to just keep making replacement alts. Heck, if that's still to strict/risky under the premise of accounts getting accidentally banned, start with a warning after so many of those repeated trades. The only issue I see with this is potentially giving a friend help when starting off, but even then you could use some player statistics to check for that situation. Not that you should give new players tons of free stuff.... but that's a separate (and opinionated) issue entirely.

Oh, and something similar should be applied to the marketplace as well (for random, useless junk going for tons of flux).

Black Wyvern
07-03-2017, 06:34 PM
Said things.

That's a terrible idea, and would be monstrously difficult, complex, and ultimately pointless to code. (Not to mention I doubt it would even be within the devs capacity to do.)
There are so many edge cases to this that it's almost impossible to code a reasonable system that would allow for these exceptions and not spontaneously ban half of Trove.

But this also isn't a thread about how to kill smurfs. So, I'll not go on some speal about the much simpler and more effective ways Trion could handle it.

FlashExe
07-03-2017, 07:13 PM
Well, if the concern is over the complexity of all the different potential trades and the memory required, that shouldn't really be an issue since most of the data can be ignored. First, they should prolly start by assigning general numeric values (prices) to everything that can be traded, and check the values of a trade with a function. For example: have the system only record a trade IF say either player gave 10 times the value of what the other player gave, or more. Then, record the crucial info of that trade into two arrays. That all important information consists of just two things: the buyer's account, and the sellers account. The fact that the trade was a give away is already known by the fact that this is recorded. The two arrays that record this info would prolly be located on those two player accounts (as opposed to a singular, massive array containing all of these sorts of trades for everyone). The arrays could be handled in two ways. Either A) put the buyer's account first and the seller's account second (or vice versa); or B) put the account that was traded with (since the array is already on one) and a simple 0 or 1 for if they were buying or selling.
Then, once every couple weeks or so (same time as updates maybe? Delays anyway am I right?), run a program to check those arrays for a certain number of repeats and voila, there's your process. Never said it'd be easy to program, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit easier than what you're making it out to be.

Also, sorry that this is rather off topic, I just figure since the whole issue with keys and shards is based off this...

Tubsss
07-03-2017, 08:39 PM
Well this was clearly done to take on the alts issue. What I donīt understand is why they "significantly" reduced the flux dropped from titanīs chests at the same time. Either do one or the other, doing both is stupid. Is it just because they added 2 more bosses and want to keep the same flux weekly? Because getting the same flux I was getting before while having to gring 1k keys frags....

Iīm not sure but I think you beat the alt mechanic with the key requirement. So instead of lowering the rewards, RAISE them. If Iīm gonna farm 200 keys to get enough to get 3 titan boxes, pretty sure I would get more money mining

sry if what I said is obvious or was already said, I just read the patch notes and was really disgusted by it, wanted to express my opinion, gonna read the entire thread now

SlyRam
07-04-2017, 07:07 AM
The whole thing with the keys is absolutely uncalled for with the current # of untradeable fragments needed to make keys. Plenty of suggestions for a fix is scattered on this thread, nobody wants to see this go live. This will only make the rich richer by upping the value of flux and the poor poorer because they do not have access to making any significant progress in a meaningful amount of time.

Pennry
07-04-2017, 02:26 PM
I took the time to fire up my wife's account today and see just how long a 6.6k Boomer could farm up the 1200 needed fragments for the 6 keys we're going to need weekly. It seemed to take ages, but really didn't - about 4 hours of U7 without Patron. Honestly, this doesn't seem to bad to me, especially with the ability for Patron. The real downside was that this was about 4 hours away from any elemental world and the reduced Gem Box rate, thus no real progress to get better stats/PR.

As for the costs for the keys themselves: I've never understood why it was 50 Frags for Shadow and a jump to 200 for both Moon and Eclipse Keys. With the addition of the ability to use higher Keys for lower Chests, this makes even less sense. Why would I waste 200 Fragments for less rewards? Especially when there are so many new rewards to spend Souls and Hearts on? I'd suggest at least lowering the Fragment costs to 132ish for Eclipse. That's based on keeping the 800 Frags we needed for 4 Keys to now be 800 for 6 and rounding down to the nearest divisible by 4 (4 per 1*, no patron).

The other suggestion I can give that I'd be happy with is making Prime worlds have 100% Gem Box rate like the elementals. This would at least let us have similar chance at stat/PR progress. Then the real trade off (and I still think the biggest) is not being able to target a specific element that we want to improve.

ForsakenHero
07-04-2017, 02:39 PM
Let's be real here. Since patron literally cuts the key grind in half i doubt they are gonna temper with the cost too much to encourage people to buy it.

Bobfishkins23
07-04-2017, 03:25 PM
Let's be real here. Since patron literally cuts the key grind in half i doubt they are gonna temper with the cost too much to encourage people to buy it.

Maybe they will buff patron to give 4x shards :rolleyes:

SlyRam
07-05-2017, 06:55 AM
Or they can force more people to quit the game by making it even more pay to win than it already is.... even as a p2w player I still complain about it being p2w :/

spar13
07-05-2017, 09:03 AM
The fragments wouldn't be so bad if gems were 100% drop in Prime worlds. The 30% drop rate in Prime worlds makes me not ever want to step foot in them. The reasoning was that people wouldn't want to go into the elemental worlds but I doubt this because people still want a specific element and it can be easier to farm an in elemental world over one that is just random. Something must be done because the effort required here is asking too much. Either boost the prime world drop rate on gems, cut the amount of fragments required for keys, or give patron a boost on the drop rate of fragments.